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Thread: The Definition of Religion

  1. #1
    Stegodon Heffalump's avatar
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    Default The Definition of Religion

    Having taken part in several religious debates, many of the debates come down to how each side defines the words. One of the words that often gets defined differently by each side is the word religion.

    Here's Merriam Webster's definition of religion:

    Definition of RELIGION

    1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
    b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
    2
    : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
    3
    archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
    4
    : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
    Generally, I've found:

    If you're on the non-religious side of the debate, you'd likely define the word religion very narrowly to include the supernatural and God. It's easier to ague against a narrow definition, so people on the non-religious side usually argue that religion is the opposite of science. Science is verifiable and testable, they argue, while God and religion are not.

    If you're on the religious side of the debate, you would tend to broaden the word religion to include ritualized attitude, beliefs and practices since there are a lot of religious activities that can be experienced. Many of these experiences can't be verified and tested, but they also don't necessarily fall under the supernatural category.

    Which side of the debate do you fall on? How do you define religion?

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    The nicest answer I heard about it was that science tries explains the how, whereas religion tries explains the why. I don't see science and religion being incompatible just different ways of looking at the universe in general.

    I tend to fall on the religious side of the debate because I tend to find the athiestic way of looking things too narrow minded and only concentrating on what is there in front of them and that little else is up for debate.

    I would include ritualised beliefs and faiths in religion as a belief that there is something else beyond what our five senses can tell us.
    In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    I'm a little bit like CIAS, I think. I think religion has a role, in my life and in the world in general. So, even though I'm a bit of a doubter, I tend to take the religion side in questions like this. I've always thought that the modern idea of "well, science is now explaining the universe so we don't need religion" gives short-shrift to what religion actually means to people, which is to give a deeper meaning to it all, to answer the "why are we here?" kind of questions. I think that rituals and belief sort of go hand in hand, and I'm kind of skeptical of the "I'm spiritual in my own way" kind of religion as well as the "belief isn't important to me, but I like being part of a community" kind of religion. I tend to fall into the latter camp a bit, but I think both faith and practice are important.

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    Oliphaunt
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    I am one of those 'spiritual in my own way' types, though I've kind of been the look-out for some kind of community I could be a part of without feeling silly or hypocritical.

    Anyways, I also fall onto the religious side of the debate, as you've framed it, Heffalump.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Orual View post
    I am one of those 'spiritual in my own way' types, though I've kind of been the look-out for some kind of community I could be a part of without feeling silly or hypocritical.
    I hope what I said didn't seem rude...I didn't mean I was skeptical of it terms of sincerity or anything like that. I am just not sure it's enough to be considered "religion."

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    Aged Turtle Wizard Clothahump's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Heffalump View post

    Which side of the debate do you fall on? How do you define religion?
    I define it for what it is: a massive con game designed to accumulate wealth and gain influence over its adherents.
    Political correctness will be the death of our country.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Your answer falls short on two levels, Clothahump. First, it assumes insincerity on the part of religious adherents. SEcondly, it doesn't address Roo's question.

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    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena View post
    Your answer falls short on two levels, Clothahump. First, it assumes insincerity on the part of religious adherents. SEcondly, it doesn't address Roo's question.
    Thank you, Sarah.
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Clothahump View post

    I define it for what it is: a massive con game designed to accumulate wealth and gain influence over its adherents.
    I didn't realise Amway was a religion.
    In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.

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    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    Religion is a set of beliefs used to explain a particular worldview, which incorporates spirituality, mysticism, and ritual. Ritual can be a group activity or private. I've known a few solitary pagans who are absolutely religious, even if everything they are doing everything alone.

    I've also met a few people who do Amway type stuff (Avon, those damned candle parties) that are bordering on being cult members, so make of that what you will.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Peeta, good point...I absolutely agree that the ritual can be private, but that it's an important component of religion.

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    Aged Turtle Wizard Clothahump's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena View post
    Your answer falls short on two levels, Clothahump. First, it assumes insincerity on the part of religious adherents. SEcondly, it doesn't address Roo's question.
    It does answer her question, exactly. And the insincerity is primarily on the part of the people who invented the religion and those who currently carry it forward. The believers are victims who have been conned, and they believe the lie. The implementers know its a lie and yet they continue to spout it because they're making money off of it.
    Political correctness will be the death of our country.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Or they could be adherents to the Sky Cake hypothesis.

    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Clothahump View post
    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena View post
    Your answer falls short on two levels, Clothahump. First, it assumes insincerity on the part of religious adherents. SEcondly, it doesn't address Roo's question.
    It does answer her question, exactly. And the insincerity is primarily on the part of the people who invented the religion and those who currently carry it forward. The believers are victims who have been conned, and they believe the lie. The implementers know its a lie and yet they continue to spout it because they're making money off of it.
    No, you didn't answer it. She wants to know what needs to be involved for something to be considered a religion, and you didn't answer that.

    Regarding the rest of what you said here...you are assuming that there is insincerity on the part of people who "invented" the religion (whoever that might be). And you are assuming insincerity on the part of people who continue to propagate the religion, cause you know, the people who "invented" all the major religions have been dead quite a while. Those are pretty big assumptions, and most likely incorrect ones.

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    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    Or they could be adherents to the Sky Cake hypothesis.
    Damnit, Zuul! How many times do I have to tell you? IT'S PIE!

    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena View post
    And you are assuming insincerity on the part of people who continue to propagate the religion, cause you know, the people who "invented" all the major religions have been dead quite a while. Those are pretty big assumptions, and most likely incorrect ones.
    For what it's worth, my father and uncle (both ministers) are very sincere in their faith. Actually, I've known many people in the ministry through my life, and I've never gotten the idea that any of them were doing it for any reason other than a desire to spread the word of God.

    Back to the real topic, I've never really seen science and religious faith as really in opposition.
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Marsilia View post
    Damnit, Zuul! How many times do I have to tell you? IT'S PIE!
    It's CAKE, motherfucker! YOU'RE DEAD!

    Back to the real topic, I've never really seen science and religious faith as really in opposition.
    Well, there are plenty who would disagree with you. It's unfortunate and ironic when there is an outspoken atheist scientist fighting with creationists who instead of focusing on taking down ignorance focuses on religion and thus the only people paying attention to him are the people who agree with him anyway. No creationists learn that they don't have to believe in a literal Genesis and that their faith can live side by side with scientific fact. Instead, they're taught through example that only through ignorance and insularity can their faith be safe from attack. Richard Dawkins, I'm looking at you.

    The false dichotomy that says science and faith are in opposition perpetuates ignorance by making people feel like science is an attack on their faith. There's no reason that it should be. Shocking though the Internet might find this, there is a significant minority of scientists who are themselves religious. Even more of them apparently consider themselves "spiritual." Interesting paper on that here.

    Personally, so long as the Sky Cake isn't creeping into school curriculum or being used to decide public policy, I don't much care if someone believes in a celestial snackfood.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

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    Aged Turtle Wizard Clothahump's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena View post
    Quote Originally posted by Clothahump View post
    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena View post
    Your answer falls short on two levels, Clothahump. First, it assumes insincerity on the part of religious adherents. SEcondly, it doesn't address Roo's question.
    It does answer her question, exactly. And the insincerity is primarily on the part of the people who invented the religion and those who currently carry it forward. The believers are victims who have been conned, and they believe the lie. The implementers know its a lie and yet they continue to spout it because they're making money off of it.
    No, you didn't answer it. She wants to know what needs to be involved for something to be considered a religion, and you didn't answer that.
    A study of history shows us that all religions, in some manner, exploit the human fear of death. This is how they gain power over their adherents and/or accumulate wealth. Give us your money and/or services and in return, we will let you believe in our warm fuzzy: when you die, you get to go to heaven/valhalla/the elysian fields/wherever. But if you don't give us your money and/or services, then you don't get to believe in that and instead, you'll go to hell/hades/sheol/wherever. And historically, the obvious threat was, you'll likely go there a lot faster because we'll kill you for not doing what we say.

    The founders of a religion live very well indeed.

    Regarding the rest of what you said here...you are assuming that there is insincerity on the part of people who "invented" the religion (whoever that might be). And you are assuming insincerity on the part of people who continue to propagate the religion, cause you know, the people who "invented" all the major religions have been dead quite a while. Those are pretty big assumptions, and most likely incorrect ones.
    No assumptions whatsoever. Again, studying religion from an historical and social point of view shows very clearly that religions are all about power and/or money. The theology is simply the snake oil that they sell to their victims. They are nothing but gigantic con games.

    And you don't have to look all that far back in history. Scientology is a "new religion"; it has started in my lifetime. And it was started for one reason and one reason only: to make money. L. Ron Hubbard is on record as repeatedly saying that the only way to make real money was to start a religion. And he, as the founder of the religion, got quite rich off of it.
    Political correctness will be the death of our country.

  18. #18
    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    Broad brush statements about multiple cultures show an almost laughable level of hubris. But, I'm an idiot who was raised in part by a snake oil salesman, so what do I know?
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Ah, well, I tried to get him involved in the actual discussion, but it didn't work. Thanks for playing, though, Clothahump!

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    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by The linked paper above
    There is some truth to the perception that scientists and the academy are “godless.” Yet, to see the academy only from this monolithic view would overlook the significant numbers of scientists who do identify with some form of faith tradition (48 percent) as well as those who are interested in spirituality (about 68 percent).
    Huh. I never would have guessed that the number was so high. It does make it a little harder to argue that science and spirituality are entirely opposed, if they so often go hand in hand.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Yeah, I find that pretty interesting, Peeta. Maybe it's part of what we were talking about before...the wanting to know the "why" of it, you know?

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Clothahump View post
    A study of history shows us that all religions, in some manner, exploit the human fear of death. This is how they gain power over their adherents and/or accumulate wealth. Give us your money and/or services and in return, we will let you believe in our warm fuzzy: when you die, you get to go to heaven/valhalla/the elysian fields/wherever. But if you don't give us your money and/or services, then you don't get to believe in that and instead, you'll go to hell/hades/sheol/wherever. And historically, the obvious threat was, you'll likely go there a lot faster because we'll kill you for not doing what we say.

    The founders of a religion live very well indeed.
    I'm not so sure that is true. I don't think early Christians were raking in the wealth as much as spreading an idea that you should do the best you could for your fellow man to be rewarded in the afterlife and trying to avoid being put to death.
    In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.

  23. #23
    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CatInASuit View post
    Quote Originally posted by Clothahump View post
    The founders of a religion live very well indeed.
    I'm not so sure that is true. I don't think early Christians were raking in the wealth as much as spreading an idea that you should do the best you could for your fellow man to be rewarded in the afterlife and trying to avoid being put to death.
    Pretty much. And, even now, not every pastor has a "mega-church" and a multi-book deal with Zondervan. And, my cousin's wife pretty much has to beg for money so she can go to impoverished and under-developed countries to help build schools and houses and give starving kids food and stuff.
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

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    The general tenor of weary sighing above suggests to me that Clothahump has a tedious habit of threadshitting wherever he gets the excuse to trot out his favourite line about religion - one I've heard from other lips and at other times and places. But the specific instance he cites above is retarded in the extreme: the fact that Scientology was recently founded by an unprincipled scoundrel does nothing to demonstrate that any genuine religion was so founded, still less that they all were. Nor even would the ability to demonstrate that, in fact, all of the senior churchmen in Christianity were pious-sounding hypocrites only in it for the wealth and the power. Even were such the case (and that may be far more than Clothahump can indeed show) it would not refute the hypothesis that Christianity itself was founded on utter truth, but has attracted parasitic chancers after the manner of many a secular organisation.

    As to the definition of religion, I make no claim to enlightenment.

  25. #25
    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    My theory is that one of the big disconnects that's suffered between some atheists and people of faith is that, as atheists they cannot fathom having faith in something intangible like that. And so, being unable to fathom it, they have to look for motivations that they can understand. So they look at cons and manipulation and people being duped, since those make more sense than a bunch of people all sharing the same "delusion" of their own free will.

    And so that's where dueling definitions of religion come from, for the most part. I don't think it's out of a malicious desire to control the debate by narrowing definitions, but simply because if you don't have faith then the concept of religion is just plain weird to you.

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