Women don't like sex?

[CatInASuit]

There has been a certain amount of outcry of the claim that straight women only go to bed with men "because sex is the price they are willing to pay for a relationship".

The claimer being Stephen Fry, whose view on it is that if women liked sex as much as men then surely would be more cruising areas for women to pick up other people for cheap sex.

He has then hit back on twitter saying his remarks were taken out of context, followed by the Observer saying that they left them completely in context.

More on the story here

So ladies, is Stephen Fry still the clever and witty gentleman he is supposed to be, or is he, just for once, being completely brain dead.

[Orual]

He is, of course, completely brain dead.

[Zuul]

Well, Stephen Fry doesn't have sex with women and is comparing heterosexual women to the cruising habits of gay men. Whatever claims you can make about their innate sex drives, that's hardly a valid comparison. There's a whole host of societal pressures, cultural expectations and physiological differences going on there.

For one thing, a heterosexual woman has a much wider pool of partners to draw from than a gay man. For another, because men in western culture are typically the aggressors and seeking partners out, straight women don't have to be so active about their seeking. A heterosexual woman's strategy for looking for a sex partner might be as simple as putting on some makeup and going out in public to flirt.

On average, women probably do have a lower sex drive than men, since testosterone is linked to libido. There are going to be some women who have very high sex drives and some men who have very low sex drives, but if you felt the need to make grand generalizations it would probably lean towards high testosterone individuals wanting sex more often.

However, there's also the fact that while a healthy man can probably get off with anybody of his preferred gender, a woman can't. Sex without an orgasm is hardly a good enticement, so while there are lots of women who do go out looking for sex, there are also a lot more women who are choosier, since they have no guarantee of getting an orgasm with any random partner.

The characterization that Fry makes that women use sex for relationships (some do, but not all) and that women who seek sex are prostitutes (some are, but not all) is the kind of attitude that keeps a lot of women who do have higher sex drives from being more proactive about seeking sex out. If they do, they'll be seen as manipulators and whores. We'd all be better off if women didn't feel the need to hide their sex drives either way, since it would make it easier to find a partner whose drive matches your own.

[Peeta Mellark]

I'm going to give Stephen Fry the benefit of the doubt and wait to hear more from him, because he really is generally a very intelligent and thoughtful man.

On average, women probably do have a lower sex drive than men, since testosterone is linked to libido.

Yeah, I can agree with that statement and it matches what I've seen. Female libidos and male libidos don't seem to be exactly the same from my extremely limited experience, but it's a continuum and individuals will differ from the average. That's why it's bad to make sweeping generalizations.

[Hatshepsut]

It's probably fair to say that men and women, on average, have both a different approach to sex and a different response to being deprived of it. But any statement that implies women can't have a very strong sexual appetite is of course ridiculous.

It's probably wise to distinguish between "libido" (a raw, physical drive toward sexual release) - and sexual behavior (what one is willing to do to obtain a sex partner, and how one defines a suitable partner, both of which have culture-driven, externally imposed components combined with one's individual personality and biology). Libido-wise, men may have higher levels, on average, but probably not to the extent people think. Behavior-wise, men are almost certainly going to come out on top (heh) in terms of sexual expression.

[Zuul]

A good point, Hatshepsut. I was thinking along the same lines, but it didn't come out as clearly in my post as in yours.

Anecdotes aren't data, blah, blah, blah, but I can't help but think of all the descriptions I've heard from people on hormone replacement therapy (and my own experience with progesterone). Whether they're trans or cis, dealing with a hormone imbalance, an intersex condition or castration, there tend to be certain responses depending on which way they're going. So there does tend to be a difference in how libido is going to be experienced based on the hormones in your body, but as you pointed out the cultural response to that libido is also going to be different. And different doesn't necessarily mean less or absent or unenjoyable, nor does it mean that everybody is going to experience the exact same difference.

[Peeta Mellark]

I was just discussing something on another board that put me in mind of this quote again:

In uncharacteristically extreme comments, the openly gay Twitter champion said he believed most straight men felt that "they disgust women" as they "find it difficult to believe that women are as interested in sex as they are".

I imagine this is true, from Fry's perspective. It's what I hear from straight guys all the time. I recognize that I may be more likely to hear complaints than the every day happiness and satisfaction going on, though. If he isn't being misquoted, it might be that he suffers from a problem a lot of gay men suffer from, because I've run into this attitude before. Since straight friends don't think you're interested in hearing their locker room talk, all you end up hearing are the "man, you're so lucky you're gay" type of stuff. Lesbians get it, too. Otherwise intelligent people can completely fail to see they aren't getting the complete picture and then I get to hear delightful misogynistic or misandristic ideas from people who should know better.

Are there men who feel like Fry is describing? Absolutely. Is this how all straight men feel? I don't think so. And just because they feel that way doesn't mean it's a universal truth about women.

[Zuul]

I'm going to give Stephen Fry the benefit of the doubt and wait to hear more from him, because he really is generally a very intelligent and thoughtful man.

I don't think he was misquoted.

[Peeta Mellark]

Well, he probably said it, but I think his explanation makes sense:

Anyway, I did a photo-shoot for the magazine, during which and after which I conversed with a profiler. ... Well, I chatted to this fellow on the day; he seemed very nice and very charming and we had a pleasant, relaxed and easy conversation. That’s the word, a conversation. I remember very little of it, but I can picture the narrow little room in which the latter part of it took place. At some point we chatted about gay sexuality – well, you would wouldn’t you, for a gay magazine? – and as part of that conversation I repeated the old canard about how men, unlike women, were cursed with their uniquely pressing and annoying libidos. Straight men I have known have often (of course mostly in a kind of bitter jest) said how much they envied gay people the simplicity of their erotic lifestyles (cottaging and cruising and so on) and I vamped for a while on that theme. I do not believe it as some kind of eternal gender truth, I was simply taking a thought for a walk, I was “playing gracefully with ideas” to repeat Oscar’s great phrase, or at least attempting to do so. But the important thing to remember is that the subject was not straight female sexuality, but gay male sexuality. It’s the only sexuality of which I have direct experience and how could I presume to speak of any other?

Source.

[CatInASuit]

Actually I think it is more like he must have a book to promote.

Twice in a week, he isn't that stupid

[Peeta Mellark]

Yeah, that bit they're talking about comes from the blog post I'd quoted. I don't think he made the comparison to be controversial, nor do I think it was a particularly offensive comparison. It was clearly hyperbole.

[Zuul]

Actually I think it is more like he must have a book to promote.

Twice in a week, he isn't that stupid

Yeeeeaaaaaah. Either he wants to drum up controversy or he truly, really is a moron. I read the "apology" in full and it was a typical Internet non-apology. "Oh, I am so sorry that you're too stupid to understand my clever and philosophical musings. I am so sorry that you've decided to be offended." He put the blame everywhere but on his own stupid words.