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Thread: Spitz, what the fuck is wrong with you?

  1. #1
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    Default Spitz, what the fuck is wrong with you?

    I don't expect this to be terribly interesting to most of you and if you don't care about stupid gay chat drama then move along.

    So Spitz comes in one night with the explicit goal of starting a conversation about some irrelevant Australian athlete of some sort who, upon watching some irrelevant Australian sports team win a victory against someone-or-other, congratulated the victors, and told the losers, "Suck on that faggots" via Twitter.

    Now, this isn't the kind of news I care about. Dumb athlete says dumb homophobic thing, news at 11. I'm not exactly shocked by this. This is not the kind of news I follow; I couldn't give have a shit, honestly, about irrelevant celebrities I've never heard of in irrelevant countries I've barely heard of.

    At any rate, some rugby player called her out (it's like American football except they don't wear padding and the French national rugby team puts out this incredibly sexy calendar every year and if you get on Google you can find the uncensored pics and videos and you can buy compilations and oh my god.) Anyway, Australian rugby player Ian Roberts called her an idiot (which seems valid) and said that any sponsers who continue to support her are idiots too (which also seems valid, unless being anti-'faggot' is somehow a useful marketing position in whatever irrelevant country Spitz is from.) Ian Roberts, incidentally, is in fact a faggot. (As, in fact, am I. Please, dear readers, control your breathing so you don't faint with shock.)

    Anyway, surprisingly, young Spitz was upset by this. Spitz came in to explain to Mellophant that this woman didn't deserve to be treated as though she had just used an anti-gay slur. She deserved the pretense that she had been perfectly polite all this time. Yeah, I don't get it either. He was upset about something about how gay people had attacked the "straight community" (yes, those were his words) by condemning her actions. Somehow, iniquitous gays had essentially assaulted straight people everywhere by blaming them for this.

    Aside, of course, from the fact that -- as far as I can tell from Googling -- Ian Roberts is pretty much the only gay person who has even bothered responding to the dumb bitch in question. Spitz certainly couldn't find any examples of what he was complaining about. That, however, did not stop him from explaining that it was some sort of injustice that gay people had blamed her -- and, by extension, the "straight community" -- for what she said. There are literally zero examples of gay people who have blamed straight people in general for this dumb bitch's comment. Seriously, get on the Googlenets if you doubt me. There just aren't any.

    But anyway, despite the fact that this undoubtedly talented (in areas that don't involve social behavior, intelligence, or really any skill not related to timing one's breathing) idiot insulted gay people, somehow, gay people managed to avoid repeating her behavior, and limited their criticism to the dumb bitch herself. No one said anything about straight people in general. Nonetheless, Spitz is extremely butthurt over the tremendous insult the "straight community" suffered due to the iniquitous gays who have the nerve to hold a straight person individually responsible for the anti-gay thing she said.

    Look. I don't think the moron in question is actually a homophobe. I just think she's an imbecile. I get that people use casually homophobic language and don't understand or care about how that impacts on gay people. They do it because they're dumb, not because they're particularly bigoted. She's too stupid to understand what she's saying. I recognize that. I'm every bit as pro-stupid as she is pro-gay.

    What I don't get is why Spitz decided to be her white knight, bringing the stupid bitch in question up in chat and demanding that chatters offer her an indulgence for her behavior. I don't get why I or anyone else should be required to excuse what she said. It wasn't okay for her to use homophobic slurs the way she did, and I don't understand why Spitz would feel it is somehow appropriate to defend that shit the way he did.

    I also don't get why Spitz decided that the moment anyone disagreed with him, it was yet another attack on the "straight community". I don't get why he somehow thinks that gay people should ignore that kind of thing rather than, you know, responding to it and disapproving of it. Apparently, in Spitz's mind, gay people are obligated to tolerate and excuse that kind of thing. I don't understand why he thinks that at all.

    What I really don't get, though, is how I am somehow responsible for this. See, ever since this event, Spitz has had me on ignore. This, despite the fact that it was a conversation in which I was almost completely uninvolved. Look at the transcript: I showed up well into the conversation, stayed for a few minutes, and then left, because I didn't want to have the fight. I showed up again, briefly, before the end. Because it was somehow still going on after I drank a bunch and masturbated to pee videos on Youtube. All in all, I was there for well less than a quarter of the conversation he had which was with Inner Stickler and Myrnalene. Who, gamely, futily, tried to get him to stop embarrassing himself by launching his anti-gay tirades.

    Somehow, nevertheless, I am the bogeyman of this conversation. I've attached the text of it in the next message so that my beloved readers can see for themselves. Despite the fact that I was involved in less than a quarter of the conversation -- and most of that spent trying to derail Spitz's self-humiliation with jokes -- somehow, I am some sort of monster, devoted to unfairly attempting to hold straight people responsible for what they say. Which, according to Spitz (but not, however, the dumb bitch in question) is some sort of outrage. (N.B. The dumb bitch in question has apologized profusely for her dumbbitchedness, which is not enough to stop Spitz from bravely defending her against the cruel hordes of gays that are victimizing her and all other straight people.)

    Spitz, in fact, spent the whole conversation screeching about how people were being cruel to him. It was unfair, apparently, to accuse him of defending straight people for using homophobic slurs (even though that's what he was doing.) In Spitz's world, apparently, it is totally unconscionable for gay people to hold straight people responsible for their actions, and expecting him to come up with some backing for his defense of this dumb bitch was yet another example of gay people victimizing straight people like him.

    Anyway, for reasons that are not clear to me, Spitz has blamed me for his embarrassing failure here. Somehow, I -- despite being present for less than a quarter of the conversation, and that time spent mostly trying to derail it through jokes -- somehow I am the horrible gay person who is attempting to victimize straight people everywhere just because they use anti-gay slurs. Basically, because Spitz was humiliated in his conversation with Inner Stickler and Myrnalene, I deserve to be punished -- see, he's stuck me on his ignore list. I have no idea why. I have been pretty cool with him on a lot of occasions. In particular, I have spent a lot of time attempting to help him with computer troubles.

    I don't see what I've done to deserve this. I really can't see why I deserve punishment here, rather than, say, Myrnalene, who was actually attempting to correct his behavior. Except, well, she's straight, and I'm gay. That's pretty much the only thing I can figure out that I have done wrong here. It appears that being gay is, in itself, enough reason that I deserve to be punished, for the horrible brutality that gay people never exercised upon this dumb woman and the "straight community".
    Last edited by Exy; 18 Sep 2010 at 04:20 AM.

  2. #2
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    09-05-2010 19:37 <spitz> stix, do you know who stephanie rice is?
    09-05-2010 19:38 <Inner Stickler> nope
    09-05-2010 19:39 <spitz> she's an olympic swimmer who got in trouble for using the word 'faggots' on twitter.
    09-05-2010 19:39 <fachverwirrt> She was just talking about building a fire...
    09-05-2010 19:40 <spitz> she was actually referring to the South African rugby team, who lost recently
    09-05-2010 19:40 <Inner Stickler> Good.
    09-05-2010 19:41 <spitz> why is that good?
    09-05-2010 19:41 <Inner Stickler> I'd like people to think a little more about what they say.
    09-05-2010 19:42 <spitz> and an old aussie song has the line, 'kookaburra gay your life must be' and a teacher tried to changed the word 'gay' to 'fun' and the whole country turned on him.
    09-05-2010 19:42 <spitz> yeah stix, she didn't mean it in a HOMOPHOBIC WAY, but it was stupid.
    09-05-2010 19:43 <fachverwirrt> It's fundamentally homophobic, whatever her intent.
    09-05-2010 19:43 <spitz> i don't follow
    09-05-2010 19:44 <Inner Stickler> There is no nonhomophobic way to refer to people as faggots.
    09-05-2010 19:45 <fachverwirrt> She's using a derogatory term for gay people to put down other people.
    09-05-2010 19:45 <Inner Stickler> The word has a very strong derogatory connotation. To call someone a faggot is to say that their behavior is that of a homosexual an that is a bad thing to be.
    09-05-2010 19:45 <spitz> but you yourself said earlier you didn't mind the word so much, it's what it's used for
    09-05-2010 19:45 <fachverwirrt> Saying "hey, look at those losers. They must be gay."
    09-05-2010 19:46 <Inner Stickler> I don't think I said that.
    09-05-2010 19:46 <spitz> i agree it was a very poor choice of word, but i don't see why gays would be offended by a stupid woman using the word the way she did
    09-05-2010 19:46 <Inner Stickler> I've said for a long time that I don't use words that I wouldn't want others to use towards me. So I don't generally refer to myself as a faggot.
    09-05-2010 19:47 <Inner Stickler> I have no interest in trying to 'reclaim' a word.
    09-05-2010 19:47 <spitz> stix, someone on mello referred to you as faggot, queer or something. i asked you if you found that offensive. you said what i said you said above.
    09-05-2010 19:47 <spitz> i don't call anyone a faggot, whether i think they're gay or not.
    09-05-2010 19:47 <Inner Stickler> you'll have to point out the post because I don't remember this.
    09-05-2010 19:49 <spitz> it was a while back, so maybe not in the archive. i think it was Aggie who said faggot/queer/whatever, and that exchange took place.
    09-05-2010 19:49 <Inner Stickler> I have a hard time imagining that someone on mello would be throwing around gay epithets.
    09-05-2010 19:49 <fachverwirrt> On the other hand, I often throw around gay epitaphs.
    09-05-2010 19:49 <spitz> it was tongue-in-cheek. no offense was intended.
    09-05-2010 19:50 <spitz> which is where my point comes from.
    09-05-2010 19:51 <Myrnalene> so, if someone says something hurtful, everyone should just look the other way if no offense was intended?
    09-05-2010 19:51 <spitz> that would be a strawman argument, myrn.
    09-05-2010 19:52 <Inner Stickler> I'm sure she meant no offense. But I'm glad that she has gotten some backlash and maybe in the future she will think more carefully about the things she puts on twitter.
    09-05-2010 19:52 <Myrnalene> and does she come from some alternative universe where faggot isn't a slur? how can she not know that that word is used to hurt people?
    09-05-2010 19:52 <spitz> i never said 'just let everyone be as hurtful as they wish'
    09-05-2010 19:53 <spitz> stix, i totally agree. she should be in trouble for saying that.
    09-05-2010 19:53 <Myrnalene> then what do you want the reaction to be, spitz?
    09-05-2010 19:53 <spitz> it's a slur, yes.
    09-05-2010 19:53 <spitz> i answered that in the post just above yours, myrn.
    09-05-2010 19:54 <Myrnalene> ok then what is this conversation about
    09-05-2010 19:55 <fachverwirrt> It's about bundles of sticks. But not inner sticks.
    09-05-2010 19:55 <fachverwirrt> Or something.
    09-05-2010 19:55 <spitz> i told stix what this dumb broad (a slur, yes) said, interested in his opiniion. he gave his opinion, which we discussed.
    09-05-2010 19:56 <Myrnalene> also, Aggie likes to say offensive crap about groups he is not a part of and then laugh, just because you've seen him do it doesnt' mean it's ok or whatever
    09-05-2010 19:56 <spitz> i said i didn't understand the FUUUURRRYY!!!!!!!!!!! from the gay community, coz the 'straight community' was appalled by it also.
    09-05-2010 19:57 <spitz> MYRN, I NEVER SAID IT WAS OK. IT' JUST SAYING I'M SAYING IT'S OK.
    09-05-2010 19:57 <spitz> how'd the thing with yo mama go, anyway?
    09-05-2010 19:58 <Myrnalene> you dont' understand why gays would be more angry at hatespeech against gays than straight people would?
    09-05-2010 19:59 <spitz> i understand they would take it more personally. i don't understand the way they made it bigger than it had to be. i think they could have handled it better, for their own sakes.
    09-05-2010 20:00 <Myrnalene> handled it better by not being as angry as straight people?
    09-05-2010 20:00 <Myrnalene> or.....only as angry as straight people, I guess?
    09-05-2010 20:01 <spitz> myrn, i'm not saying they're not entitled to be angry. did you actually read my posts?
    09-05-2010 20:02 <spitz> being angry from something hurtful is different to turning it into 'US AGAINST THE HORRIBLE STRAIGHTS!!!!!'
    09-05-2010 20:02 <Inner Stickler> this movie is making me very unsympathetic to Timothy Treadwell.
    09-05-2010 20:02 <Myrnalene> yes, you are saying they were too angry. If that's not what you meant, then I'm not understanding you
    09-05-2010 20:02 <spitz> they're causing trouble for themselves is what i was aying.
    09-05-2010 20:02 <Myrnalene> spitz, it very often IS them against horrible straights and that's not of thier doing
    09-05-2010 20:02 <Myrnalene> what kind of trouble?
    09-05-2010 20:03 <Inner Stickler> Being uppity and not knowing their place, I'd assume.
    09-05-2010 20:03 <Myrnalene> Sticky, is it Grizzly Man? It's in my queue but I haven't seen it
    09-05-2010 20:03 <Inner Stickler> Yes.
    09-05-2010 20:04 <spitz> tthey're making the divide bigger. as i already said, the vast majority of the straight community agrees with them on this topic. and they're still shitting bricks, which is alienating the 'straight' support they had...
    09-05-2010 20:04 <Inner Stickler> He just had a lovely little monologue that was all "poor me, women don't have sex with me as often as I'd like. It'd have been pretty great if I were gay cuz gay people don't have problems like mine.
    09-05-2010 20:05 <spitz> yes, OK stix, and myrn, I'm a horrible homophobe. i dedicate every second of my existence to putting gay people down. it's what i live for. happy?
    09-05-2010 20:06 <spitz> tho i already said i never use the word faggot at anyone.
    09-05-2010 20:06 <Inner Stickler> no, I never said you are a homophobe.
    09-05-2010 20:06 <Inner Stickler> But you're saying that they should calm down and I'm saying that straight society should get angrier.
    09-05-2010 20:06 <Myrnalene> woah woah woah neither of us said anything even close to that
    09-05-2010 20:07 <spitz> 'Being uppity and not knowing their place, I'd assume.'
    09-05-2010 20:07 <Myrnalene> it's sort of ironic that you seem to be getting emotional at the same time you are accusing another group of being emotional. but we certainly don't think your a homophobe
    09-05-2010 20:08 <spitz> what's with all the snide questions and rhetoric, then? i wasn't shitting bricks when i came here - i asked a gay man his opinion on a gay issue, and offered mine. i haven't been nasty to anyone.
    09-05-2010 20:08 <Inner Stickler> Spitz, in america at least saying something like 'they're just causing trouble for themselves' is code for not knowing their place.
    09-05-2010 20:08 <Myrnalene> no one has been nasty to you
    09-05-2010 20:08 <Inner Stickler> it's a turn of phrase that is, at least in my mind asociated with bigotry.
    09-05-2010 20:08 <spitz> codee? i didn't mean it as 'code'. it meant it literally.
    09-05-2010 20:09 <Myrnalene> I'm not asking snide questions, I'm trying to have an honest discussion with you.
    09-05-2010 20:09 <spitz> inadvertently causing trouble for themselves.
    09-05-2010 20:09 <Inner Stickler> No one should be accused of causing trouble for themselves by standing up for their human rights.
    09-05-2010 20:09 <Myrnalene> I'm trying to figure out what you mean, that's why I was asking questions
    09-05-2010 20:10 <Myrnalene> spitz, I don't understand why straight people would think "hey it's wrong to call people faggots!" and then get angry when a gay person or group passionately says the same thing
    09-05-2010 20:10 <spitz> stix, i'm not questioning their motivation or their rights.
    09-05-2010 20:12 <Myrnalene> Spitz, gays can be as sweet as they want and some straight people will still hate them and there will still be institutionalized homophobia. It's not like things will get better if they are just less angry.
    09-05-2010 20:12 <spitz> i'm not angry about that or anything, myrn. all i said was the gays are making it tough for themselve because they're using this swimmer as a lightning rod for THE STRAIGHTS. when the vast majority of that community agrees with them on this issue, as i've said.
    09-05-2010 20:12 <spitz> look, MLK was an angry dude. but he was smart, too. he used it in the right ways.
    09-05-2010 20:13 <Inner Stickler> Are they though? Do you have some examples of hardships gay-rghts groups are experiencing that can be traced back to this?
    09-05-2010 20:13 <fachverwirrt> Spitz, can you give us a specific example of what you're talking about?
    09-05-2010 20:13 <spitz> he didn't turn against ALL WHITE PEOPLE to defend black people.
    09-05-2010 20:13 <Myrnalene> MLK got a lot of criticism at the time for being too uppity and too angry.
    09-05-2010 20:14 <Inner Stickler> Yeah, MLK was not well liked by certain segments of society.
    09-05-2010 20:14 <Myrnalene> ok, can you link a quote or something where these groups are turning against all straight people becasue of what this lady said?
    09-05-2010 20:14 <Exy> holy shit you guys what is going on
    09-05-2010 20:14 <spitz> i'm talking about in the community, the mindset of ignorant straight people. i don't know how to 'site' that.
    09-05-2010 20:15 From <Exy> spitz is a retard is what is going on
    09-05-2010 20:16 <spitz> F, leading gay rights activists came out and blasted THE STRAIGHT COMMUNITY for what one dipshit did. they have general community support, and they're attcking straight 'society' instead of this one idiot.
    09-05-2010 20:16 To <Myrnalene> what the hell is he smoking
    09-05-2010 20:16 From <Exy> ps woah I was so unintentionally ironic just now
    09-05-2010 20:16 <spitz> i'll look for quotes, links etc. bbs.
    09-05-2010 20:16 <Inner Stickler> Well straight society tends to give the impression that it's ok to use derogatory gay slurs willy nilly.
    09-05-2010 20:16 <Exy> "the straight community"? willing to bet no one used that phrase.
    09-05-2010 20:17 <Myrnalene> Yeah, attacking straight society is not the same thing as attacking straight people
    09-05-2010 20:17 <Exy> oh wait "straight society", sorry.
    09-05-2010 20:17 <Myrnalene> just as railing against the patriarchy is not attacking all men
    09-05-2010 20:17 <Exy> Well, insofar as Straight Society makes such things okay, they are wrong, and DO need to be excoriated for it.
    09-05-2010 20:18 <Myrnalene> the fact of the matter is that, well, mainstream society is stacked against gays
    09-05-2010 20:18 <Inner Stickler> the only thing i've seen is ian roberts demanding her sponsers pull out.
    09-05-2010 20:18 <spitz> for fucks sake, i just made a simple point in passing and it's being picked to death!
    09-05-2010 20:18 <Exy> Given that that's what you're doing right here and right now, it seems a little rich that you're complaining about how straight people are unfairly being criticized for it.
    09-05-2010 20:18 <spitz> he made other comments, stix.
    09-05-2010 20:19 <Myrnalene> spitz, no one's being mean to you
    09-05-2010 20:19 <Myrnalene> we're trying to understand what you mean and explain a different POV.
    09-05-2010 20:19 To <Myrnalene> wot
    MYRN, I NEVER SAID IT WAS OK. IT' JUST SAYING I'M SAYING IT'S OK.
    09-05-2010 20:20 <spitz> i just gave my opinion, and agreed with the gay rights thing stix said, and this semantic bullshit started, and more snide remarks about phrases i used that aren't 'real phrases'
    09-05-2010 20:20 From <Exy> yeah that's so garbled I have to think it's a series of typos
    09-05-2010 20:20 <Myrnalene> ok no one is making "snide" remarks!
    09-05-2010 20:21 <spitz> i've explianed it repeatedly. my POV is not drastically different to yours, believe it or not.
    09-05-2010 20:21 <Exy> your viewpoint is that gay people need to stop causing all this trouble, which, I think it's safe to say, is very different from the viewpoint of the rest of us in here right now.
    09-05-2010 20:22 <Myrnalene> yeah, it is spitz, if you think that a marginalized group should control it's own anger to appease people
    09-05-2010 20:23 <Myrnalene> getting kicked in the teeth every day tends to make people angry, I can't fault them for it and since I'm not gay it's not really my place to
    09-05-2010 20:23 <Exy> i try to control my anger in order to appease myrna
    09-05-2010 20:23 <Exy> i feel so oppressed
    09-05-2010 20:23 <spitz> 'all this trouble'. context is important, exy. you're deliberately fucking the context up here. i never sdaid gay ppl should cause no trouble ever for anyone and fuck ogff and die I NEVER FUCKING SAID THAT. i'm saying the trouble they're making for their cause.
    09-05-2010 20:24 <Inner Stickler> We're asking you to provide a real life example of this trouble.
    09-05-2010 20:24 <Myrnalene> spitz, if straight "allies" are put off by anger than they were shitty aliies to begin with
    09-05-2010 20:24 <spitz> so, gays should just vent however the fuck they want to? not bother about consequences? that would be detrimental to their cause in the long run.
    09-05-2010 20:25 <Inner Stickler> Because I haven't found anything except that same article quoting Roberts saying that her sponsers should pull out and she's an idiot. Nothing about the straight community. Nothing about anyone but stephanie.
    09-05-2010 20:25 <spitz> i've already explained that. they use whatever offending person as a lightning rod for the wohole community.
    09-05-2010 20:26 <Myrnalene> do you have an example of that?
    09-05-2010 20:27 <Inner Stickler> Wait, so Ian Roberts castigating Stephanie Rice is actually a super secret condemnation of straight society? I disagree with that interpretation.
    09-05-2010 20:27 <spitz> well, he mustn't've said anything else, then. my opinion doesn't mean shit, and because i'm not a scholar and don't have sites falling out of my arse, well, i stand corrected. fuck! i won't mention gay things here again. sorry i did. fuck.
    09-05-2010 20:28 <Inner Stickler> Well, I don't know what you want me to say then.
    09-05-2010 20:28 <spitz> say what you will.
    09-05-2010 20:28 <Myrnalene> you're being very, very defensive at the same time you are accusing other people of being too defensive. NO ONE called you a homophobe and no one thinks you are
    09-05-2010 20:29 <Myrnalene> If you really want to understand the gay response, where here are two gays right here. They understand this better than you or I could
    09-05-2010 20:29 <spitz> myrn, plz show where i critisised gays for being defensive. if you're gonna attack my argument, fine. but do it honestly.
    09-05-2010 20:30 <spitz> ...and i took stix's reponse in that spirit. then it turned into this 'holy fuck! spitz dares to have an opinion on something that doesn't directly affect him!
    09-05-2010 20:30 <Inner Stickler> I don't understand how Stephanie Rice is supposed to be standing in for all straights everywhere. I don't think Roberts was saying anything about straights in general. Just Rice.
    09-05-2010 20:31 <Myrnalene> ok but no one attacked you
    09-05-2010 20:32 <spitz> di d i actually say ian roberts is being mean to 'US'? no. look, i've already explained this ad nauseum. yous obviously don't agree with me.
    09-05-2010 20:32 <Inner Stickler> If you think I attacked or insulted you, I apologize because I don't mean to hurt you.
    09-05-2010 20:33 <Inner Stickler> You said that they use whatever offending person as a lightning rod for the whole community. To me that says that someone somewhere says So and so exhibits behaviors that are endemic to the whole group. See how offensive they are.
    09-05-2010 20:34 <spitz> lol stix, you didn't attck me, hurt me or insult me. it's cool. i'm obviously not qualified to flap my gums about things i don't understand.
    09-05-2010 20:35 <Inner Stickler> I am simply asking for an article or quote that demonstrates a hardship that is obviously due to the gay community's response to the situation, and I'd like to see a response from someone other than Ian Roberts.
    09-05-2010 20:35 <Myrnalene> spitz, if you don't understand something, what's wrong with people who do (and I'm not saying I do, but say, Sticks) politely trying to explain it to you?
    09-05-2010 20:36 <Myrnalene> no one's told you to shut up
    09-05-2010 20:36 <spitz> yeah. i meant that generally. i didn't specify 'every gay person doe sthat every single time'. i meant, if you feel put upon, and react agressively, it might be counterproductive to what you're trying to acheive. that's all i said.
    09-05-2010 20:36 <Myrnalene> no one's told you to fuck off and die, like you did upthread
    09-05-2010 20:36 <Myrnalene> Gays don't feel put upon. they ARE put upon
    09-05-2010 20:37 <spitz> i'm not qualified, so i'll shut myself up. i wasn't aiming that at anyone.
    09-05-2010 20:37 <Exy> look seriously your defensiveness about this makes it impossible to talk
    09-05-2010 20:37 <Myrnalene>
    spitz, if you don't understand something, what's wrong with people who do (and I'm not saying I do, but say, Sticks) politely trying to explain it to you?
    09-05-2010 20:37 <Exy> You want to classify everything everyone says as some sort of attack, whatever. If it makes you feel better, fine.
    09-05-2010 20:38 <spitz> that's the semantic thing again, myrn you know damn well what i'm trying to say, and you're picking it apart one flake of skin at a time. yes they ARE put upon. you must've known i meant that.
    09-05-2010 20:39 <spitz> and exy, you didn't even acknowledge me until this shitstorm popped up, so i don't know where you get off either.
    09-05-2010 20:39 <Exy> stop telling everyone else what we "know"
    09-05-2010 20:39 <Myrnalene> uh what, Exy talks you you all the time
    09-05-2010 20:40 <Exy> I was off doing something else and I came back and you were castigating gay people for "causing trouble for ourselves", uh, I'm not supposed to respond to that?
    09-05-2010 20:40 <Zuul> ...huh?
    09-05-2010 20:40 <Inner Stickler> hi zuul!
    09-05-2010 20:40 <Myrnalene> spitz, look, if you honestly want to understand all this, then I recommend starting a Crucible thread
    09-05-2010 20:40 <spitz> oh, i was castigating gay people.
    09-05-2010 20:41 <spitz> Z, chate and aren't mixing too well today, so i might give it a rest. have fun!
    09-05-2010 20:41 <Myrnalene> I understand that chat can feel ..... really personal and that sometimes a conversation on the forums is better
    09-05-2010 20:41 <Zuul> I am so confused.
    09-05-2010 20:41 <Exy> yes in fact you were, maybe you should review the archive
    09-05-2010 20:42 <Zuul> Bye spitz?
    09-05-2010 20:42 <Inner Stickler> Bye spitz!
    09-05-2010 20:42 <Myrnalene> if you don't want to understand all this, then well...I don't know why you brought it up
    09-05-2010 20:43 <Inner Stickler> So how was your evening, zuul?
    09-05-2010 20:43 <spitz> you don't know? i already told you: i asked stix his opinion on something he knows more about than i. he gave it. we discussed it. then apparently i started on my homophobic rampage and castigated gays. this is exactly why i never bother with the crucible.
    09-05-2010 20:44 <Zuul> Full of migraine. I hadn't checked in on the board all day so decided to drag myself over here.
    09-05-2010 20:44 <Myrnalene> ok for like the tenth time, no one called you a homophobe
    09-05-2010 20:45 <Myrnalene> you know what? there's no shame in not thinking about or understanding all these issues
    09-05-2010 20:46 <fachverwirrt> Good timing, Zuul.
    09-05-2010 20:46 <Myrnalene> no one's angry at you because of it

  3. #3
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Is there a reason why chat drama from two weeks ago is being dredged up now?

    And on second read, this still makes no sense to me.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

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    This post should be just the last two paragraphs or so of the OP, because everything before that was a diatribe that I shouldn't have spent time coasting through. It's needlessly derogatory and, frankly, if I weren't looking for a silver lining I would have rolled my eyes and kept going.

    Is this really intended to get an apology from spitz, have a confrontation, or what? Because, just, really.
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    Sorry for my tldr but, well, I'm pissed. This dude comes into chat just to go on a tirade about how unfair it is that gay people are holding a homophobic athlete responsible for what she says. Then he starts whining about how oppressed he is. I don't get why it's apparently now totally acceptable for someone to come into chat and whine about the poor oppressed straight people, make up bullshit about how he's being treated unfairly when people (very, very politely) suggest that what he's saying is off-base, and then just go on like it ain't no thang.

    For fuck's sake, if Glenn Beck said what Spitz said no one would act like it was okay.

  6. #6
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    Alright, I wasn't gonna throw my hat into the ring here, but I guess I will..

    First of all, spitz, I understand why you don't want to participate in this thread, but honestly, now that this drama is public, I think you pretty much have to publicly say that yes, you understand you were wrong, and you're sorry for acting that way. Because you do and you are, right?

    That said, Exy, look man, what you were trying to accomplish here? Yeah. I want you to understand I say this as someone who is on your side here, and agrees with you. What you're going for was never gonna happen posting an OP like that. Insulting spitz and Australians in general in ways that are completely unrelated to the problematic things that spitz said is nothing but well poisoning, pure and simple. I'm assuming you want an acknowledgement and apology, but calling a man's country irrelevant sounds like you're baiting him into a fight.
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    Uh, I call lots of things irrelevant. That's what's known as a joke.

    What I'm trying to accomplish? I'm calling him out on his unprovoked homophobic tirade in chat. And the fact that he came back two days later with a custom title whining about how he was being oppressed, and the fact that he's apparently blaming me for his stupid tirade (again, despite the fact that I was barely present. He was arguing with Myrna and Sticks, not me. I left for awhile because I just didn't want to get involved in a conversation that stupid.)

    What I've learned is that all this talk about "privilege" and "heteronormativity" and all that other stuff is just posturing, because someone can come in, spew a bunch of homophobic bullshit, and everyone just pretends it didn't happen. And keep in mind, his core complaint is that this woman is being held to account for calling people "faggots"; we're not talking about some subtle minor issue of him using the wrong terminology or something like that. That's apparently a-okay even here on Trannyphant. Which, well, I don't get.

    But, then, I've spent enough time in activist circles to know how little the average L cares about GBT stuff, or the average G cares about LBT stuff, and us Gs are a small minority here. So I guess it shouldn't really shock me that this queer messageboard is still totally willing to overlook this shit. Because, well, hey, clearly homophobia isn't as big an issue as making people feel bad about their homophobia.

    And he's not sorry. He hasn't apologized or acknowledged that he shouldn't have said what he did. He flounced, and came back two days later with a custom title bragging about it. That's the opposite of being sorry.

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    If Exy was so concerned about what I thought, he could've PMed me, or, better still, try to discuss things in chate instead of throwing his toys and crying in his nappy. I was more than willing to clear the air with him the next day, when he effectively had me on some kind of 'fucktard ignore' list. Frankly, I'm sorry I bothered. I gave Myrn and Stix the best explanations/apologies that I could, and was willing to approach Exy in the same spirit. More fool me. I've said everything I have to say about fracas. Exy can find himself another scratching post.

    To all innocent parties drawn into this monstrosity of a soap opera, I apologise unreservedly and unequivocally.

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    If Exy was so concerned about what I thought, he could've PMed me, or, better still, try to discuss things in chate instead of throwing his toys and crying in his nappy. I was more than willing to clear the air with him the next day, when he effectively had me on some kind of 'fucktard ignore' list. Frankly, I'm sorry I bothered. I gave Myrn and Stix the best explanations/apologies that I could, and was willing to approach Exy in the same spirit. More fool me. I've said everything I have to say about fracas. Exy can find himself another scratching post.

    To all innocent parties drawn into this monstrosity of a soap opera, I apologise unreservedly and unequivocally.

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    I was very polite in chat, as the record shows. Then you left, then you stuck me on ignore.

    You want to spew a bunch of homophobic shit in chat for no reason? Fine. Apparently, you'll find a lot of people pathetic enough to support you in it. It still doesn't change the fact that I wasn't even the person you were fucking arguing with. I'm just a convenient gay scapegoat.

    Quote Originally posted by spitz
    I was more than willing to clear the air with him the next day, when he effectively had me on some kind of 'fucktard ignore' list.
    I don't even know what this lie is supposed to mean. You weren't there for the next day, it was about two days before you even showed up again, and you certainly didn't fucking try talking to me.

    Quote Originally posted by spitz
    and was willing to approach Exy in the same spirit.
    Pure lie, you didn't approach me at all. You didn't say anything. You put me on your ignore list when you came back with your custom title bragging about it. I didn't even know that until Myrna told me.


    Anyone who actually thinks this was just some misunderstanding is, hopefully, clear now that it definitely wasn't.

  11. #11
    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Spitz: The entire argument, the ENTIRE purpose of everything I was saying to you was that straight people should not criticize gay people for being angry about offensive comments.

    You told me (in private) you understood that, but you continued to be angry at Exy for being angry at your offensive comments.

    You just characterized a gay man being angry (and he actually hardly spoke in the conversation) at your stupid comments as "throwing his toys and crying in his nappy". That is NOT OK. Why did you act think you understood this when I explained it to you before?

    Quote Originally posted by spitz View post

    To all innocent parties drawn into this monstrosity of a soap opera, I apologise unreservedly and unequivocally.
    But you still haven't apologized, publicly, for the stuff you said in chate. You did apologize to me, and I appreciate that. But I should have told you it's not my place to accept apologies for the stuff you said, because I'm straight and this isn't about me.
    Last edited by Myrnalene; 18 Sep 2010 at 10:36 PM.
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    Well, look. I've explained this many times now. I've apologised, repented, seen the error of my ways...

    I was not angry with Exy until he started this 'SPITZ IS A CUNT!!!' trainwreck of a thread.

    You guys knock yourselves out. I'm done here. If anyone wants to discuss these things privately and without the attitude, I will oblige.

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    No, you didn't apologize. You threw a big fit in chat because some straight woman got criticized for her homophobic comments, and then you flounced, and you came back two days latter with a custom title bragging about your homophobic commentary in chat.

    I was not angry with Exy until he started this 'SPITZ IS A CUNT!!!' trainwreck of a thread.
    Bullshit. I just chalked it up to "spitz is a clueless straight guy who has no idea what he was saying" until I found out you had preemptively put me on ignore. I had no idea you were still somehow convinced you were in the right on the issue until Myrna told me you were ignoring me, after you were confused about a reply she made to a chat I wrote. That was days after the events in question and I hadn't talked about it with anyone -- you included -- in the meantime.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally posted by spitz
    I was more than willing to clear the air with him the next day, when he effectively had me on some kind of 'fucktard ignore' list.
    Quote Originally posted by spitz View post
    I was not angry with Exy until he started this 'SPITZ IS A CUNT!!!' trainwreck of a thread.
    Dude, wtf. You know damn well both of those quotes are lies. Are you trying to turn this around so that you look like the innocent victim in all this? Of course you were angry at Exy, or are you going to pretend that

    09-06-2010 22:32 <spitz> yeah, how dare those fucking faggots ban you.

    in response to Exy (because it was a conversation about his dope sock, so it's clear who you meant) was a reasonable attempt to reach out to him?

    By the way, this:
    To all innocent parties drawn into this monstrosity of a soap opera, I apologise unreservedly and unequivocally.
    Is a shitty fucking excuse for an apology or an acknowledgement and it makes me think you don't understand the complaint against you at all.
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  15. #15
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    Nice sig, Exy. Really nice. I was just going to ignore this thread because I felt like Tom had said it best--spitz needed to apologize, but Exy, you poisoned the well from the start--but then you had to go and lash out at me.

    So let's start with this.

    09-05-2010 20:15 From <Exy> spitz is a retard is what is going on
    You didn't even bother to edit out your PMs involving ableist slurs in the chat log. Kind of hard to take your wounded innocence (or your posts in that thread about "retard" being a slur) seriously when we can all see what you were saying in PMs. The claim that you were just oh-so-innocently trying to defuse the conversation is a bit weakened by that fact.

    And then there's what you sent me while I was off taking NyQuil last night:

    Sep18 22:17 From <Exy> it's gotta be great to be bisexual, you get to enjoy gay sex and straight privilege all at once. it's the best of both worlds.
    Since I'm in a monogamous relationship, I'm not sure how to take that. Maybe it's just run of the mill attempts to make bisexuality invisible, but considering my relationship and identity it sure reads as transphobia to me. Are you considering me dating a trans man the equivalent of having gay sex in private and straight privilege in public? Because since I am only sleeping with one person, that is really what that reads like. And that is seriously, seriously offensive.

    No, Exy. You are not some wounded innocent, surrounded by the cruelly privileged transgendered. There are reasons why people don't want to join you in yet another pile-on. Yes, spitz was out of line, but you didn't come here looking for an apology. You started this thread wanting to have a big dramatic fight with all of your knights in PC armor rushing to your rescue and helping you chase off yet another person from this dwindling little board. You're not an idiot, so had you wanted an apology I know you could have approached this in a way that might have gotten you one.

    Now, spitz. "Faggot" is a slur and a pretty awful one, on par with "nigger" because of its association with oppression and violence. Your continued use of it in chat shows that you don't grasp where you were offensive and don't grasp what you did wrong and haven't really made amends. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt earlier, but that was obviously misplaced.

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    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    09-05-2010 20:15 From <Exy> spitz is a retard is what is going on
    You ever look at old chate PMs and notice that they sometimes misattribute who said what in a two way conversation? The above was me, responding to Exy's "holy shit you guys what is going on"? I knew the second I typed it that it was hypocritical, which is why I followed it up with, "ps woah I was so unintentionally ironic just now". I know it's ableist, I meant what I said in the Crucible thread. I mentioned in chate the other night that I still slip up with regards to ableism. It's wrong, I should do better, and I apologize.
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    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Too late to ETA: To clarify, the chate PMs shown above that say "From Exy" are mine. The ones that say "To Myrnalene" are his. I don't know why the attributions are rendered like that in the archives but it's a known bug. If you look at your own old PMs in the chat archives you will see the same kind of thing.
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  18. #18
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Zuul, you have been very, very consistently defending Spitz in this from when he started. First you made up some story about how he apologized, even though he never did. Now you're standing up for him even after he's made it very clear that he's not sorry and that he meant exactly what i said.

    Congratulations. Keep on enjoying your straight privilege. You sound exactly the same way as any other privileged person does when they're challenged.
    Last edited by Exy; 19 Sep 2010 at 11:53 AM.

  20. #20
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    Exy, you posted the PMs. They are in this thread. I have no ability to look at your PMs except when you post them.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

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    Yes, hence my ninja edit. The only PM of mine you shared publicly was the one I sent you last night.

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    Also, keep trying to play 'PCer than thou' while you're standing up for this guy, Zuul. Good going.

    Since I'm in a monogamous relationship, I'm not sure how to take that. Maybe it's just run of the mill attempts to make bisexuality invisible, but considering my relationship and identity it sure reads as transphobia to me. Are you considering me dating a trans man the equivalent of having gay sex in private and straight privilege in public? Because since I am only sleeping with one person, that is really what that reads like. And that is seriously, seriously offensive.
    It means exactly what it sounds like. You're not the first bisexual person I've ever met, Zuul. And you're not the first bisexual person I ever met who just really didn't give a shit about gay issues at all. You're in a long term relationship with a dude, and so you don't have to give a shit about any of this since you get to enjoy the benefits of being straight. Hence you sticking up for the straight guy using anti-gay slurs.

    Anyone who's spent any amount of time around queer people has seen that shit before.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    You're in a long term relationship with a dude, and so you don't have to give a shit about any of this since you get to enjoy the benefits of being straight.
    Right. Transphobia. You have actually been pitted about this one before. I have talked about it time and time again. Do I need to put it in my sig? You repeatedly categorize me as a woman and erase my gender identity. Either you can't grasp nonbinary gender or you just refuse to acknowledge it.

    Had you made a nice, reasonable OP about how you were hurt by what spitz said and want an apology for that I sincerely doubt any of us--even us oh-so-privileged bisexuals--would have argued against you. Instead you post some inflammatory bullshit that has no point and then get pissy when people, for some mysterious reason, don't want to ally themselves with your needless ranting.

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    Yes, complain about transphobia while standing up for the use of the word "faggot". Hint: it doesn't matter what your gender identity is in regard to you being able to enjoy straight privilege, Zuul, unless you're not presenting yourself publicly as a woman. You know perfectly well that that what I said doesn't involve trying to "erase your gender identity".

    Instead you post some inflammatory bullshit that has no point and then get pissy when people, for some mysterious reason, don't want to ally themselves with your needless ranting.
    Oh, please, Zuul. I was literally the only person here who gave a shit about what Spitz said. I didn't even want to say anything since, when this happened, I was still under the (obviously erroneous) impression that Spitz meant well. But, well, I got pissed off at seeing how apparently what he said -- and him somehow blaming me for it -- was a-okay with absolutely everyone else here.

    But, you know, continue to explain to me that the important thing for a member of a minority group to do is be nice about it when they protest someone saying something offensive. That's a classic tactic. It's right out of the How To Exercise Privilege handbook.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    Yes, complain about transphobia while standing up for the use of the word "faggot". Hint: it doesn't matter what your gender identity is in regard to you being able to enjoy straight privilege, Zuul, unless you're not presenting yourself publicly as a woman. You know perfectly well that that what I said doesn't involve trying to "erase your gender identity".
    Amazing. So I guess you have been there every time I have been called ma'am/sir and know which gender people assume I am (hint: it's not always the same one). And you have been there every time some rude asshole has asked me, "Are you a boy or a girl?" And you know what I look like every time I walk outside my door. And you have been there when I've been called fag and when I've been called dyke. And you have been there when I am glared at and shoved in bars for not meeting gender expectations. And you have been there when I have been erroneously "outed" as a trans woman or a drag queen. And you have been there when Rabbit and I have gone out together and strangers have stared and followed us, trying to read gender. And you have been there when we have mourned because we can't get married. And you have been there when we've had agonizing conversations about whether or not I need to physically transition for my well-being. You've been there all along. You know.

    Your use of female pronouns for me doesn't change how my life works out in the real world. It does not suddenly make my relationship a straight one or give me privilege. I have never, ever said that what spitz said was right. I have expressed confusion over his outburst. I have (erroneously, apparently) said I thought he'd be willing to learn about why what he said was wrong. I have had a distracted PM conversation with Myrna while I was busy talking to Rabbit, and I can only assume that's where you're getting half this crap from. I've been gone for a week and haven't been wallowing in this, so it all comes out of nowhere to me. I'd thought he'd apologized at some point, but Myrna told me he didn't (or rather, he only apologized to her).

    So I said it above and I'll say it again: he should apologize. A real apology. His use of the word "faggot" shows he clearly doesn't grasp where he went wrong.

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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    Amazing. So I guess you have been there every time I have been called ma'am/sir and know which gender people assume I am (hint: it's not always the same one). And you have been there every time some rude asshole has asked me, "Are you a boy or a girl?" And you know what I look like every time I walk outside my door. And you have been there when I've been called fag and when I've been called dyke. And you have been there when I am glared at and shoved in bars for not meeting gender expectations. And you have been there when I have been erroneously "outed" as a trans woman or a drag queen. And you have been there when Rabbit and I have gone out together and strangers have stared and followed us, trying to read gender. And you have been there when we have mourned because we can't get married. And you have been there when we've had agonizing conversations about whether or not I need to physically transition for my well-being. You've been there all along. You know.
    You win gold in the Oppression Olympics!

    You know what, the fact that I said you were acting with privilege does not represent some kind of statement that you're not queer (or not queer enough, or whatever.) The fact is, my life experiences have taught me that bisexual people just don't really care all that much about gay issues. I don't know your life experiences -- I don't even know what you look like -- and I don't know your feelings. I don't know if you are as uninterested in gay rights issues as most bisexuals I met have been.

    What I do know is that you have been continuously minimizing what Spitz did.


    Your use of female pronouns for me
    My use? I thought you said it didn't matter to you which pronouns people use. Everyone else seems to refer to you as "she".


    It does not suddenly make my relationship a straight one or give me privilege.
    No, your relationship is not straight. However, you are performing privilege here. At the core, we're talking about a group that doesn't include you. You being one kind of queer doesn't give you magical insight that entitle you to speak on behalf of other queers, or tell groups that don't include you that we shouldn't get bent out of shape over insults. Spitz, a non-faggot, came into chat to launch a diatribe about how unfair it was that another non-faggot was being held responsible for her public use of a slur. Now you, another non-faggot, have cheerfully decided to explain to me exactly how angry I am entitled to be.

    That's textbook privilege. Being marginalized doesn't mean you don't have privilege. In the same way as I enjoy white privilege, male privilege, and the half-privilege of gay invisibility all day long, you enjoy the privilege of not being a faggot.


    I have never, ever said that what spitz said was right.
    No, you've just minimized it, and explained that he had good intent, and that it doesn't really matter that much, and that it's old news and I should just forget about it.


    I have had a distracted PM conversation with Myrna while I was busy talking to Rabbit, and I can only assume that's where you're getting half this crap from.
    You did, in fact, tell her that Spitz meant well (ironic after your link to that blog post about "intent" yesterday. You've also minimized what he said everywhere else, so I don't know why that conversation is particularly relevant.


    So I said it above and I'll say it again: he should apologize. A real apology. His use of the word "faggot" shows he clearly doesn't grasp where he went wrong.
    Yes, he should.


    Oh, and by the way, your unattractive grasping at straws to prove that I'm whatever kind of "-ist" you can make a case for doesn't change the validity of anything I say anyway. You sure got pissed about my use of the term "privilege", but baselessly accusing me of being a transphobe and an 'ablist' is considerably worse.
    Last edited by Exy; 19 Sep 2010 at 04:04 PM.

  27. #27
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    Whatever, Exy. The whole conversation is in the archives and I never brought up intent. I expressed hope that he could be educated, which I've since noted is in doubt. Any "minimizing" of the incident was in direct comparison to Myrna's question about people's reactions to ivan. And yes, in comparison to the fights with ivan, spitz was barely on the radar. The fact that you want to crucify me over an admittedly distracted conversation in which I didn't respond to everything she said because I was busy is ridiculous. Had I been aware her "I'm not shit-stirring" comment was a confession that she was, in fact, collecting information for you to become self-righteously insane over I wouldn't have responded at all.

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    Lol, Zuul. Whatever. Everything you say is exactly what people say when they defend their privilege. Myrna sent me I think two lines of your conversation. It's not like you weren't minimizing what Spitz said everywhere else at the same time.

    Enjoy supporting homophobia. But don't you think you should try to find some more -isms to throw at me? You haven't called me anti-Semitic yet!

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