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  1. #51
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Hi-de-hi, campers! Hope everything is tickety-boo in your bit of the world?

    Anyhoo, on with the show...

    Muffin just came up with an interesting little word-combo in his last enlightening post.

    "critical thinking requires analysis"

    Would melloheads tend to agree that real analysis can only come about by taking on board all possibly relevant information, and not by conveniently ignoring those bits which make them uncomfortable?

    FSM's, IPU's and chocolate teapots orbiting far-off planets, are never potential sources of explanations for real-life events and are one of, if not THE most juvenile attempts at ridiculing a poster's position ever put forward on teh intrawebs.

    Using ridiculous imaginary constructs to try and dismiss an opponent's position is the sign of a weak and lazy mind.

    Discuss.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 12 Aug 2010 at 02:40 AM.
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  2. #52
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    Surely you can't be born anything, other than as a human being? No child chooses the religion it grows into, and placing your own religious beliefs onto its burgeoning personality, could be deemed slightly immoral, especially in the case of children born into radical fundamentalist families or backgrounds.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    Surely you can't be born anything, other than as a human being? No child chooses the religion it grows into, and placing your own religious beliefs onto its burgeoning personality, could be deemed slightly immoral, especially in the case of children born into radical fundamentalist families or backgrounds.
    Moderator note: This is the sort of obnoxious semantical nitpicking I'd expect on the Dope. We all know exactly what it means to be "born" into a particular religion. Let's not use this nitpicking in the Crucible.

  4. #54
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    I thought it might have been stating the obvious, but I never dreamed it might be interpreted as "obnoxious semantical nitpicking"! Ffs, I've just been banned from the Dope for not fitting in; do you really think "obnoxious semantical nitpicking" is part of my act, Zuul, or are you just being hyper-sensitive and looking for a reason to jump on me?
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  5. #55
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Rather than derail Sarah's thread, I've moved this little discussion over here.

    I really don't care if everybody at the Dope hates you or if they crowned you king. The Crucible is for debate and discussion, not quibbling over colloquial word usage that all native English-speakers understand.

  6. #56
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    It's not nitpicking to point out that a baby doesn't have the belief system to be religious in any meaningful sense, and is essentially only wearing a label put upon it by its parents, until it is old enough or independent enough to make decisions for itself.

    If you disagree, I'd be interested to hear why.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 12 Aug 2010 at 02:08 PM.
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  7. #57
    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    ivan, it doesn't even matter if you think it's nitpicking or not. It has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, whatsoever. If you'd like to start a thread on whether or not people are "born" into religions, or whether or not it's ethical to raise children in a particular religion, or whatever your point is here, please feel free to start one.

    I have the weirdest sense of deja vu right now.

  8. #58
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Hmmm...I know. Shall we just cut to the insults?
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  9. #59
    I've had better days, but I don't care! hatesfreedom's avatar
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    it's important we make sure everybody agrees in a thread ivan, otherwise it might be an amusing discussion.

  10. #60
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    It's not nitpicking to point out that a baby doesn't have the belief system to be religious in any meaningful sense, and is essentially only wearing a label put upon it by its parents, until it is old enough or independent enough to make decisions for itself.

    If you disagree, I'd be interested to hear why.
    Ivan look I am not against you, but it was not really in the tone of the thread and it was nitpicky. We all know we don't come out of the womb Christian or Jew or Scientologist and being born to a religion is a pretty clear allusion to be raised in a religion from birth. Hell that thread was overwhelmingly people not actually friendly to organized religion. You were potentially starting a side argument in a thread that was doing well. It was a derailing post. Some Liberal has perfected. Thus the short leash. Actually adding here seems like the best idea. Now your post can be discussed without harming the general idea of the original thread.

  11. #61
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    And then penis might ensue, the gates of Mell open, and the ghosts of trolls past come teeming forth to make a mockery of our fair queendom.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    Ivan look I am not against you, but it was not really in the tone of the thread and it was nitpicky. We all know we don't come out of the womb Christian or Jew or Scientologist and being born to a religion is a pretty clear allusion to be raised in a religion from birth. Hell that thread was overwhelmingly people not actually friendly to organized religion. You were potentially starting a side argument in a thread that was doing well. It was a derailing post. Some Liberal has perfected. Thus the short leash. Actually adding here seems like the best idea. Now your post can be discussed without harming the general idea of the original thread.
    You're an okay guy, Jim - I'll listen to you. Plus, you don't address me like I'm a mental defective who has no concept of reasoning.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally posted by hatesfreedom View post
    it's important we make sure everybody agrees in a thread ivan, otherwise it might be an amusing discussion.
    Fuckem Hall... have you heard of that place, hatesy? You might want to take that pretty lady from the coffee-shop there against her will, one evening. I'll see if I can find that link for bookings. Apparently, they have an impressive mini-bar in their rooms, so make sure you use somebody else's credit card.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    You're an okay guy, Jim - I'll listen to you. Plus, you don't address me like I'm a mental defective who has no concept of reasoning.
    Don't hesitate to start threads on topics that occur to you when you read other threads.

    Don't threadshit or otherwise try to derail interesting discussions with hijacks that don't contribute to the thread topic.

    If you are, indeed, not a mental defective, that should be pretty doable. You posted at the SDMB for a long while and God knows those aren't the general practices there, but they are here.

  15. #65
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    If you want to dispel your doubts about whether I am mentally defective or not, I'll happily take on any "critical thinking" challenge you, or any other poster cares to provide. All you have to do is try and keep it interesting.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 13 Aug 2010 at 05:32 AM.
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  16. #66
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    My challenge is to think about what you're posting and not post comments like the one Zuul gave you a note above. That would be the relevant proof of your non-defectiveness.

  17. #67
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    I can do that, as evidenced by the thousands of other posts I've made, which don't get warnings. If you are suggesting there is a pattern to my posting which is designed primarily to piss people off, I think you should present your case more comprehensively.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 13 Aug 2010 at 09:43 AM.
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  18. #68
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    My challenge is to think about what you're posting and not post comments like the one Zuul gave you a note above. That would be the relevant proof of your non-defectiveness.
    Wait, we have a non-defective clause? I thought we just asked posters to mostly play nice with others?

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    Apparently you can't, as you came back here and have required continual mode intervention since then.

    I really don't think you're capable of not doing this, but you're welcome to prove me wrong.

  20. #70
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    Well, I managed to rack up 20,000+ posts on one forum, and only received a handful of warnings before I got bored with the place, so it's not totally beyond the realms of imagination. I suppose it depends just as much on how keen the modes are, eh?
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  21. #71
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    Hey, Exy! Remember when you was telling me all about how language doesn't evolve?
    "Over many generations, the grammar goes from ad-hoc and inexpressive into a language that’s cleanly structured and expressive," he said.
    "But what’s evolving here isn’t the agents" — the speakers — "but the language itself. It has its own evolutionary imperative. It wants to be passed on, and finds ways of doing that. We’re its hosts."

    Read More http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...#ixzz0wfaehLy5
    Language is a living organism. And just as any living organism, it experiences evolution. Will we be able to understand the English of the year 3,000? It seems that at least at a basic level, the answer is positive. The words which are used the most in everyday language are the most conservative, as found by two new researches.

    A Harvard team investigated the evolution of English verb conjugations over a 1,200-year period while a team at the University of Reading in England looked at cognates (words of common origin, sounding similarly in various languages and having almost the same meaning, like "water" and the German "wasser") to see how all Indo-European tongues evolved from a common ancestor 6,000-10,000 years ago.

    Read more http://news.softpedia.com/news/How-D...ve-68867.shtml
    Go and tell those fuckwits to get their facts right. :Shake:
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 15 Aug 2010 at 05:42 AM.
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  22. #72
    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Is there a thread around here you won't contaminate with your aggressive idiocy?

    I bet you get hit a lot, in real life.
    everything in nature is sort of gross when you look at it too closely. what is an apple? basically the uterus of a tree - terrifel

  23. #73
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    Very rarely, actually.

    And it's not "aggressive idiocy". It's a slight mello-rant which also raises an objection to a belief of Exy's.

    Really, Myrn, you shouldn't be so defensive all the time.

    Btw, in answer to your question, have you tried The Friday Night Dance thread? That might fit the bill for non-aggressive idiocy.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 15 Aug 2010 at 06:11 AM.
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  24. #74
    The Apostabulous Inner Stickler's avatar
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    Yeah, language itself isn't really doing anything. It's an artifact of the speakers using the language who change how it is used. If no humans were involved, the language would sit there in its original form forever.

    edit: Exy's point, if I recall the previous thread correctly was that he has a specific definition of what qualifies as evolution and part of that definition is that the subject under discussion must be undergoing either asexual or sexual reproduction, a view shared by many more than just him. And since language does not undergo reproduction, it does not evolve.
    Last edited by Inner Stickler; 15 Aug 2010 at 06:49 AM.
    I don't think so, therefore I'm probably not.

  25. #75
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    Yes, well if Exy was trying to argue that my interpretation of language evolving was wrong because I was suggesting that it evolved via some sexually reproductive stratagem, then it was a bit of a strawman, as I never argued that in the first place.


    ps. Are you another who shares this unfounded view of Myrn's that all I post is "aggessive idiocy", by any chance?
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 15 Aug 2010 at 08:58 AM.
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  26. #76
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    ASS-NESS
    comcast guy - m4m - 18 (nb)
    seem like we had that connection when we looked at each other
    you had a blue shirt on nice asss,dought you will see this but dosnt hurt to try, but id love to play with you. tell me what you where fixing, or the street name,or describe me.

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    Btw, in answer to your question, have you tried The Friday Night Dance thread? That might fit the bill for non-aggressive idiocy.

    It's true. In pointless post-padding threads you do manage to stay on topic and not be aggressively idiotic. Kudos!
    Taumpy: Oh noes, you aren't a super powerful wave of destruction.
    Panther Squad: It's true! My scythe does not shorn the biomonsters in great swaths like it ought!

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally posted by Taumpy View post
    It's true. In pointless post-padding threads you do manage to stay on topic and not be aggressively idiotic. Kudos!
    Oh wait... http://www.mellophant.com/forums/sho...&postcount=158

    Almost, ivan. Almost.

  29. #79
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    TOO "SUBVERSIVE"
    comcast guy - m4m - 18 (nb)
    seem like we had that connection when we looked at each other
    you had a blue shirt on nice asss,dought you will see this but dosnt hurt to try, but id love to play with you. tell me what you where fixing, or the street name,or describe me.

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally posted by Taumpy View post
    Like it matters anyway, in a post-padding thread! D'oh!
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  31. #81
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    This is all sorts of tragic levels of unfortunate.
    comcast guy - m4m - 18 (nb)
    seem like we had that connection when we looked at each other
    you had a blue shirt on nice asss,dought you will see this but dosnt hurt to try, but id love to play with you. tell me what you where fixing, or the street name,or describe me.

  32. #82
    The Apostabulous Inner Stickler's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    Yes, well if Exy was trying to argue that my interpretation of language evolving was wrong because I was suggesting that it evolved via some sexually reproductive stratagem, then it was a bit of a strawman, as I never argued that in the first place.
    No, he was arguing that it's not really appropriate to append the label of evolution to what happens to language because language doesn't fit the usual requirements of evolution. It is not alive, it does not reproduce, it does not undergo natural selection except in a weird way through us.

    As for your aggressive idiocy, I liked you better before you got all conspiracy theoristy but I still like you now.
    I don't think so, therefore I'm probably not.

  33. #83
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    So, how come a lot of other seemingly knowledgeable people don't seem to mind appending the label of evolution to language? Are the writers of those two articles - who both seem to disagree with yours and Exy's view, ie. that it is inappropriate to talk about language in evolutionary terms - talking out of their arses, and if so, why?
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 15 Aug 2010 at 11:22 AM.
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  34. #84
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    Hey, Exy! Remember when you was telling me all about how language doesn't evolve?




    Go and tell those fuckwits to get their facts right. :Shake:
    Do you remember what we were discussing at all at the time? Because honestly, pretending that this somehow proves me wrong makes you look literally retarded. Like you have absolutely no idea what was being discussed at all.

  35. #85
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    I know exactly what WE were discussing, and I just don't understand why you won't accept that it's okay to discuss the development of language as being something that has evolved.
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  36. #86
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    So, how come a lot of other seemingly knowledgeable people don't seem to mind appending the label of evolution to language? Are the writers of those two articles - who both seem to disagree with yours and Exy's view, ie. that it is inappropriate to talk about language in evolutionary terms - talking out of their arses, and if so, why?
    well, both of those are news articles which are not always top notch when it comes to scientific clarity. Secondly, not everyone in a given field has to agree with everyone else. The difference is that they have data that they feel backs up the conclusions they've drawn. Other linguists will look at that data and critique. Some will perform experiments to further test the hypotheses developed from the research you linked to and it will further our knowledge of the subject. I rather suspect that they're using a looser definition of evolution than we are.

    PS. exy, if you feel I've misrepresented you or general linguistic thought on this subject please let me know!
    I don't think so, therefore I'm probably not.

  37. #87
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    Well, all I've ever claimed is that language has seemed to evolve from primitive grunts and gestures, into all the myriad variations that represent it today, and I've been hectored by Exy as though I was insisting the world was flat.
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  38. #88
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    ivan, if you are using evolve as synonym for the verbal phrase "to change gradually over time" I agree with you. Language has indeed changed gradually over time. If that is how you're using it, then because evolve has a more specific, biological definition, using that word masks your meaning.

  39. #89
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    We talk about plots in a story-line evolving, cultural evolutions, the evolution of dance, and I'm sure there are others, so what better word could be used in the context of language?
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  40. #90
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    There is a freakin' awesome book called The Unfolding of Language by Guy Deutscher that goes into great detail about how languages develop and change and even has a pretty cool hypothetical section describing just how a language might grow out of really basic concepts.
    I don't think so, therefore I'm probably not.

  41. #91
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    Oooooh! Read a book? That sounds a bit like hard work. Does it have any pictures?
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    Quote Originally posted by inner stickler
    well, both of those are news articles which are not always top notch when it comes to scientific clarity. Secondly, not everyone in a given field has to agree with everyone else. The difference is that they have data that they feel backs up the conclusions they've drawn. Other linguists will look at that data and critique. Some will perform experiments to further test the hypotheses developed from the research you linked to and it will further our knowledge of the subject. I rather suspect that they're using a looser definition of evolution than we are.

    PS. exy, if you feel I've misrepresented you or general linguistic thought on this subject please let me know!
    But the article doesn't even get at what the claim was all those months ago that started this off. (And yes, those are news articles, not very good ones, and there's nothing to see about the study at PNAS's website so it's hard to evaulate it anyway.) Good research or not, it just doesn't even get at what we were discussing.


    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    Well, all I've ever claimed is that language has seemed to evolve from primitive grunts and gestures, into all the myriad variations that represent it today, and I've been hectored by Exy as though I was insisting the world was flat.
    No. That was nothing like what the actual topic that brought this up. That was a discussion as to whether "evolution" is a useful way of understanding why some languages (or some words; the claim was very vague) survive and some don't. The claim was that literal survival of the fittest describes how languages change.

    Ivan, I get that you're very poorly educated and more than a little dumb. I believe you when you say this is how you understood the discussion. But that's not what the discussion was about. I tried to explain it to you. Everyone else tried to explain it to you. At a certain point, you might as well admit to yourself that it's over your head. Because as you saw last time and this time, everyone else can tell that even if you won't admit it.

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    But the article doesn't even get at what the claim was all those months ago that started this off. (And yes, those are news articles, not very good ones, and there's nothing to see about the study at PNAS's website so it's hard to evaulate it anyway.) Good research or not, it just doesn't even get at what we were discussing.



    No. That was nothing like what the actual topic that brought this up. That was a discussion as to whether "evolution" is a useful way of understanding why some languages (or some words; the claim was very vague) survive and some don't. The claim was that literal survival of the fittest describes how languages change.

    Ivan, I get that you're very poorly educated and more than a little dumb. I believe you when you say this is how you understood the discussion. But that's not what the discussion was about. I tried to explain it to you. Everyone else tried to explain it to you. At a certain point, you might as well admit to yourself that it's over your head. Because as you saw last time and this time, everyone else can tell that even if you won't admit it.
    I won't admit it, because it isn't even true. Where you get this bollocks about being poorly educated from, apart from possibly your own arse, I cannot guess! A little dumb? Exy, why are you resorting to lies to try and make your case?
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    I won't admit it, because it isn't even true. Where you get this bollocks about being poorly educated from, apart from possibly your own arse, I cannot guess! A little dumb? Exy, why are you resorting to lies to try and make your case?
    Because you can't understand something as simple as this even when a dozen people have tried to explain it to you, over and over.

    It's not my fault you're too dumb to understand fairly simple concepts. And then, moreover, too dumb to even recognize when you don't understand something.

  45. #95
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    Shall we call it a draw?
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  46. #96
    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Here and here are the threads containing the back story for the "evolution" wank.

    He railed against niche languages / dialects, which is an ass move, and tried to argue that languages "evolve" from simple to complex. Link.

    But ivan's arguments are so convoluted that it's no surprise that even he can't remember what they are.
    everything in nature is sort of gross when you look at it too closely. what is an apple? basically the uterus of a tree - terrifel

  47. #97
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Ooh, Myrna, you shit-stirrer! Just as I was offering him an olive branch. I'm disappointed, to say the least.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  48. #98
    Padding Enabler Panther Squad's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    to say the least.
    Please, run with that idea
    comcast guy - m4m - 18 (nb)
    seem like we had that connection when we looked at each other
    you had a blue shirt on nice asss,dought you will see this but dosnt hurt to try, but id love to play with you. tell me what you where fixing, or the street name,or describe me.

  49. #99
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    Shall we call it a draw?
    No, you're just wrong. We're arguing matters of fact, and the things you said were incorrect.

  50. #100
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    I'm "just wrong" about what, exactly? Can't you be more specific than that? Which were the things I said that were incorrect? Try and keep it clear and concise; you know how much trouble I have following the English language.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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