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Thread: Poisoning the well in debates.

  1. #1
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Poisoning the well in debates.

    I’ve been thinking about this lately and it has built for some time. A recent thread made me wish to explore the issue a bit. There are subjects where it is very hard for many people to talk rationally. Let’s say Israel or Al Sharpton or rape as examples.

    Now there is a very smart poster on the Dope who I like and agree with about 90% of the time but he poisons the debates on Israel anytime it comes up. You are an anti-Semite at best if you take the Palestinian side. (Which I do not but I see some of the arguments as having merit.) Al Sharpton is a bogeyman with no redeeming qualities to a very large number of Dopers, in fact I suspect they enjoy hating him but I am not sure. I know, I spent a 400+ post thread defending him right after Rosa Parks passed away. It was also my typical argument that so and so is not a great man but dammit he is no monster and has done more positive than bad overall at least in the last decade.

    This brings us to Rape and Victimhood. In a recent thread pepperlandgirl and Myrna both took a suggestion that rape prevention and rape education needs to be addressed to young men and women as saying a women that is raped after making a bad decision deserves it. Obviously I did not say that and in case anyone is wondering I do not believe that for a second. Rape is rape. The rapist should not rape even if the foolish victim did act very foolishly. By accusing others of positions they did not take and ignoring that educating people in prevention is well poisoning the well.

    Now if there are any doubts, I am not mad at Myrna and Pep, I really like and respect both a lot. I enjoy chatting and interacting with them. They were nice enough to provide a recent example of “Poisoning the Well” in a debate. I think most of us are guilty of this at times and should watch out for it.

    Am I perceiving a real problem or just over-reacting?

  2. #2
    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    never mind.
    Last edited by OneCentStamp; 12 Apr 2010 at 12:19 PM.
    "You laugh at me because I'm different; I laugh at you because I'm on nitrous."

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  3. #3
    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    Jim, I think that you've started this off on a bad foot.

    By bringing up the high tensions from the other thread, and specifically naming two of the posters there, and how you felt that you were being accused of things you never meant, while trying to make this thread about something else, I think you've actually managed to poison your own well, here.

    It's often hard, especially when you're trying to discuss something that caused hurt feelings, to step back from it. And I think your OP shows that you're not quite ready to do that, yet.

    I'm sorry if you feel that I'm attacking you for this - but I don't think this thread is quite the good idea you might have been hoping it was. I don't think you're going to get the sort of open debate that would be very useful from your OP.

  4. #4
    I've had better days, but I don't care! hatesfreedom's avatar
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    the rape thread did end up being pretty stupid thanks to those two

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Moderator note: Given that What Exit? has called out specific posters, here, I am moving this thread to the Thunderdome.

  6. #6
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Thanks Sarah and sorry again.

  7. #7
    I've had better days, but I don't care! hatesfreedom's avatar
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    Perfectly good yelling debate that could have entertained us all day ruined by moderators

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    You can yell all you want. That's why I moved it here, where yelling is the order of the day.

  9. #9
    I've had better days, but I don't care! hatesfreedom's avatar
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    It's not the same if you have time to think about the things you're going to say

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    This brings us to Rape and Victimhood. In a recent thread pepperlandgirl and Myrna both took a suggestion that rape prevention and rape education needs to be addressed to young men and women as saying a women that is raped after making a bad decision deserves it. Obviously I did not say that and in case anyone is wondering I do not believe that for a second. Rape is rape. The rapist should not rape even if the foolish victim did act very foolishly. By accusing others of positions they did not take and ignoring that educating people in prevention is well poisoning the well.
    I have a question, because this has come up in discussions a couple of times with you and I think because there have been a lot of knee jerk reactions there hasn't been a lot of fair discussion on the topic. Does the poor decision of someone who is victimized make them less of a victim or in some way lessen the guilt of the perpetrator? Is a woman who gets raped by an untrustworthy date after being drugged less of a victim than a woman who is in her house with every door and window locked who has someone break in and attack her? Is simply being victimized proof that she has somehow made a mistake? Is a woman expected to never drink, not even with a trusted friend? Is a woman expected to avoid being alone with males, even her boyfriend or husband?

    Now to make sure my opinion is not misread:

    I've never seen you imply that this is how you see things. I think that it could be worded more gently or less insultingly than calling a woman who has been raped "the foolish victim", but I don't think you're implying women are at fault when they're attacked. You are coming off as mildly insulting, though. Keep in mind that when you say things like "stupid victim" you may very well be describing something a person here went through, something deeply traumatic and painful. These aren't just hypothetical situations.

    Am I perceiving a real problem or just over-reacting?
    It is a real problem. I think things can be handled if we stay calm and try to talk things out and find out where people really stand, instead of going off half-cocked.

  11. #11
    Free Exy Cluricaun's avatar
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    Wait, so Al Sharpton raped Israel? That bastard.
    Hell, if I didn't do things just because they made me feel a bit ridiculous, I wouldn't have much of a social life. - Santo Rugger.

  12. #12
    Stegodon
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    Rape is wrong.

    All kinds of rape is wrong, it's in the definition of the word. The wrong is always being committed by the rapist, not the victim.

    This is what I continually communicate to my son, my nephews and any other assorted young males in my vicinity when the topic comes up. As well as elaborating on what types of scenarios constitute rape, as they tend to view it as "stranger in a dark alley" too, instead of something they or their friends could be a part of.



    However, though my nieces and god-daughters get the same talk, they are also reminded of how to be smart and self-aware.

    Mike Tyson was convicted of rape and served time for it. But 18 year old Desiree should have had someone telling her "Don't answer a phone call to go to a man's hotel room at 2 in the morning by yourself" as well. Her actions put her in an unsafe predicament. Doesn't mean she deserved it, doesn't mean he wasn't wrong, doesn't mean it wasn't rape in any way shape or form. But he didn't come to where she was and force himself on her, he made a booty call that she misinterpreted, and went ahead with his plan regardless.

    Just because I ought to have the right to walk down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood wearing a rolex and counting a wad of cash unmolested, doesn't mean it's smart to do so.

    The burden isn't on women not to be raped, it's on men not to rape, of course, no one's arguing that. But there's a lot of space between "She shouldn't have worn that sexy outfit, the slut was asking for it" and "be aware of your surroundings and try not to put yourself into dangerous situations."

    Not allowing that space to exist, insisting that it's some kind of either/or when it's not, that seems like poisoning the well to me.

  13. #13
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Queen Tonya View post
    The burden isn't on women not to be raped, it's on men not to rape, of course, no one's arguing that. But there's a lot of space between "She shouldn't have worn that sexy outfit, the slut was asking for it" and "be aware of your surroundings and try not to put yourself into dangerous situations."

    Not allowing that space to exist, insisting that it's some kind of either/or when it's not, that seems like poisoning the well to me.
    This was a really well-written post, QT. Thank you.

  14. #14
    I've had better days, but I don't care! hatesfreedom's avatar
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    Queen Tonya has summed up the result of the discussion rather well.

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    Stegodon
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    Thanks.

  16. #16
    Sophmoric Existentialist
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    I agree, Queen Tonya. Well said.
    Sophmoric Existentialist

  17. #17
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    I have a question, because this has come up in discussions a couple of times with you and I think because there have been a lot of knee jerk reactions there hasn't been a lot of fair discussion on the topic. Does the poor decision of someone who is victimized make them less of a victim or in some way lessen the guilt of the perpetrator? Is a woman who gets raped by an untrustworthy date after being drugged less of a victim than a woman who is in her house with every door and window locked who has someone break in and attack her? Is simply being victimized proof that she has somehow made a mistake? Is a woman expected to never drink, not even with a trusted friend? Is a woman expected to avoid being alone with males, even her boyfriend or husband?

    Now to make sure my opinion is not misread:

    I've never seen you imply that this is how you see things. I think that it could be worded more gently or less insultingly than calling a woman who has been raped "the foolish victim", but I don't think you're implying women are at fault when they're attacked. You are coming off as mildly insulting, though. Keep in mind that when you say things like "stupid victim" you may very well be describing something a person here went through, something deeply traumatic and painful. These aren't just hypothetical situations.



    It is a real problem. I think things can be handled if we stay calm and try to talk things out and find out where people really stand, instead of going off half-cocked.
    Zuul, great question and well phrased. No I do not think the woman that acted foolish is to blame for her rape and I do not think her attacker is any less to blame. They are predators and should go to jail. It is not right, it is not funny, it is not allowed and should never be condoned. The rapist is as guilty as the predator that breaks into a home and rapes. There really is no sliding scale here. Guilt is guilt and is absolute.

    All I was trying to say, is that education should be stepped up on how to avoid the higher risk situations. I thought your Op was brilliant and should be taught to High School kids and as part of the College Orientation. Both sexes need to be taught more and better on this subject and the education of males is particularly lacking.


    Queen Tonya, I agree with you and I thought that is all I was saying. I really did think I was.
    Last edited by What Exit?; 12 Apr 2010 at 07:37 PM.

  18. #18
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    Zuul, great question and well phrased. No I do not think the woman that acted foolish is to blame for her rape and I do not think her attacker is any less to blame. They are predators and should go to jail. It is not right, it is not funny, it is not allowed and should never be condoned. The rapist is as guilty as the predator that breaks into a home and rapes. There really is no sliding scale here. Guilt is guilt and is absolute.

    All I was trying to say, is that education should be stepped up on how to avoid the higher risk situations. I thought your Op was brilliant and should be taught to High School kids and as part of the College Orientation. Both sexes need to be taught more and better on this subject and the education of males is particularly lacking.
    And that's what I figured and what I thought needed clarification, because it was getting lost in how it was being said instead of what was meant. I agree with you, FWIW.

  19. #19
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    Yeah, Queen Tonya said it really well.

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