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Thread: A PSA on gender, identity, & orientation

  1. #51
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Look people, if you are going to throw out odd terms like Cisgendered, at least include a footnote with the meaning.

    BTW: This might be the dumbest new term I have seen in years.

  2. #52
    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    Look people, if you are going to throw out odd terms like Cisgendered, at least include a footnote with the meaning.

    BTW: This might be the dumbest new term I have seen in years.
    I guess the idea behind it is that it gets away from the "transgendered" vs. "normal" dichotomy, which implies that one is better than the other. I think.
    "You laugh at me because I'm different; I laugh at you because I'm on nitrous."

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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    Look people, if you are going to throw out odd terms like Cisgendered, at least include a footnote with the meaning.

    BTW: This might be the dumbest new term I have seen in years.
    *blink* New term? It's been in regular, widespread use for at least a decade. Admittedly, it's probably not something you're going to run across if you don't talk about gender issues ever (or sexuality, feminism, or other such issues, since it's all over the place there too, given that it intersects those topics all over the place). But we talk about these things often enough here and on the SDMB that it never occurred to me that people might not already know what it means. Sorry about that.

  4. #54
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Cisgendered: a class of gender identities formed by a match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.

    It's rare that it comes up unless you're discussing transgender issues, but I think it's a fairly valuable word. Without it, the only way you can word things in a trans discussion is probably going to end up being offensive or overly wordy. Why say "male-identified-at-birth man" when you can just say cis man? And saying "real man" or "bio-man" implies that trans men are fake. "Chromosomal male" works, but says nothing about identity and is, again, lengthy.

    It's been on the internet since at least 1994, FWIW.

  5. #55
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    OK, why is Bio-man or bio-male insulting? I can see Normal vs. Trans as such but not bio. At least Bio would have a fairly clear meaning. Cis means very little to most people.

  6. #56
    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Jim, it's a word created mostly by and for transpeople as tool to further their discussions of their experiences in the world. You now have the definition, so not knowing what it means shouldn't be a problem any more, right?

    It's sort of an asshole move to say it's a "dumb term" because it's not useful to you. You rarely have to worry about this stuff, now do you?
    Last edited by Myrnalene; 06 Apr 2010 at 04:00 PM.
    everything in nature is sort of gross when you look at it too closely. what is an apple? basically the uterus of a tree - terrifel

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    I just want to say for the record that I had no intention of implying that transmen are not men, or are "freaks", or anything like that. I stand by my original statement that a strap-on is not a penis but I didn't say and didn't intend to say that a neophallus (of whatever origin) isn't a penis even if it's not a standard penis.

    I did not say, or intend to imply that Zuul is a lesbian since I know she isn't and I also don't actually believe lesbian sex is a "sad charade". That was just a joke and not something I intended to be offensive -- it's just that, as a gay man, well, sex with only one dude is sad enough. Sex with zero dudes? A heartbreaking concept. Right? Look, you know I don't actually think lesbian sex is pointless even if I can't see the appeal. I mean, that's the extent of the joke: gay dude not interested in lesbian sex.

    I really like all three of the transmen who post here. I also really like Zuul. I don't consider myself transphobic. And to whatever extent I am -- I'm not going to say I'm not the slightest bit racist either -- I would estimate I'm pretty low of the list of people who need to be confronted about it. For folks here from the SDMB who remember that epic fight over there when Elucidator kept insisting that transgenderism isn't legitimate -- I argued repeatedly that, even beyond issues of respecting people's identities, the legitimacy of transgenderism is a matter of simple fact, and that if one knows anything about transgenderism, it's intellectually indefensible to argue that it's not legitimate.

    PS: "transmen", "transphobic", and "transgenderism" are not in Firefox's spellchecker. THE OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE COMMUNITY IS OPPRESSIVE (seriouspost though there's a big strain of sexism, homophobia, and transphobia in the open source community.)

  8. #58
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    Trans is Latin for "across." Cis is Latin for "on the same side." They go together naturally and can be seen serving the same purpose in chemistry.

    What does "bio" mean? It comes from the Greek word bios, life. Aside from the fact that bios is not the opposite of trans (they aren't even the same language), it implies that which is not bios is not real.

    If you're using it as shorthand for biological, you're implying there isn't a biological cause behind transgender identities. Since that has yet to be proven, it makes more sense to not use that term. If it is proven someday to be purely psychological (something I highly doubt), then I suppose changing both terms would make sense at that point.

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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    And saying "real man" or "bio-man" implies that trans men are fake. "Chromosomal male" works, but says nothing about identity and is, again, lengthy.
    It can be argued that "bio" or "chromosomal" has other problems too. The geneticists have found that are any number of situations where your genitalia doesn't necessarily match up to your basic XX or XY chromosomes, and then there are all of the other possible combinations from XXY on up. Do too much reading without actually being a biology major and understanding how rare some of it is, and you start to wonder how anyone's chromosomes, genitalia, secondary sexual characteristics, gender identity, and sexuality all end up matching up, much less it being the majority.

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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    OK, why is Bio-man or bio-male insulting? I can see Normal vs. Trans as such but not bio. At least Bio would have a fairly clear meaning. Cis means very little to most people.
    Eh, for one thing it's probably the case, at least a lot of the time, that transmen are not biologically identical to women, and transwomen are not biologically identical to men, even prior to any hormonal treatment or surgery.

    We may not know the underlying biological origins of transgenderism yet, and it's highly possible we'll never have some theory that perfectly predicts transgenderism based on DNA, but there's good reason to believe that transgendered people are biologically distinct in at least some ways from the sexes they're assigned at birth.

    "Cis" is a technical term, yes, but it's the normal scientific counterpart to "trans". For instance there are "trans-fatty acids" and "cis-fatty acids". "Cisgendered" is the logical counterpart to "transgendered".

  11. #61
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    Trans is Latin for "across." Cis is Latin for "on the same side." They go together naturally and can be seen serving the same purpose in chemistry.

    What does "bio" mean? It comes from the Greek word bios, life. Aside from the fact that bios is not the opposite of trans (they aren't even the same language), it implies that which is not bios is not real.

    If you're using it as shorthand for biological, you're implying there isn't a biological cause behind transgender identities. Since that has yet to be proven, it makes more sense to not use that term. If it is proven someday to be purely psychological (something I highly doubt), then I suppose changing both terms would make sense at that point.
    Quote Originally posted by Risha View post
    It can be argued that "bio" or "chromosomal" has other problems too. The geneticists have found that are any number of situations where your genitalia doesn't necessarily match up to your basic XX or XY chromosomes, and then there are all of the other possible combinations from XXY on up. Do too much reading without actually being a biology major and understanding how rare some of it is, and you start to wonder how anyone's chromosomes, genitalia, secondary sexual characteristics, gender identity, and sexuality all end up matching up, much less it being the majority.
    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    Eh, for one thing it's probably the case, at least a lot of the time, that transmen are not biologically identical to women, and transwomen are not biologically identical to men, even prior to any hormonal treatment or surgery.

    We may not know the underlying biological origins of transgenderism yet, and it's highly possible we'll never have some theory that perfectly predicts transgenderism based on DNA, but there's good reason to believe that transgendered people are biologically distinct in at least some ways from the sexes they're assigned at birth.

    "Cis" is a technical term, yes, but it's the normal scientific counterpart to "trans". For instance there are "trans-fatty acids" and "cis-fatty acids". "Cisgendered" is the logical counterpart to "transgendered".
    OK, Mea Culpa and ignorance fought. This is why I stay out of these threads.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally posted by Risha View post
    It can be argued that "bio" or "chromosomal" has other problems too. The geneticists have found that are any number of situations where your genitalia doesn't necessarily match up to your basic XX or XY chromosomes, and then there are all of the other possible combinations from XXY on up. Do too much reading without actually being a biology major and understanding how rare some of it is, and you start to wonder how anyone's chromosomes, genitalia, secondary sexual characteristics, gender identity, and sexuality all end up matching up, much less it being the majority.
    Oh, yes, I thought of that. I just figured tossing out the whole intersex issue might distract him and derail explaining cis.

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    Quote Originally posted by Risha View post
    It can be argued that "bio" or "chromosomal" has other problems too. The geneticists have found that are any number of situations where your genitalia doesn't necessarily match up to your basic XX or XY chromosomes, and then there are all of the other possible combinations from XXY on up. Do too much reading without actually being a biology major and understanding how rare some of it is, and you start to wonder how anyone's chromosomes, genitalia, secondary sexual characteristics, gender identity, and sexuality all end up matching up, much less it being the majority.
    Yes, exactly. I did some research for a short story I wrote once and the process of sexual differentiation in embryos is so complicated and there is such a spectrum of ways it can go a little bit awry that it's mind-boggling. My tendency is to think that being gay is probably also fundamentally due to some sort of "disorder" (not meant to imply a value judgment) caused by sexual differentiation being just slightly screwed up.

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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    OK, Mea Culpa and ignorance fought. This is why I stay out of these threads.
    Well, not to speak for anyone else but I think asking questions is probably better than staying out of threads about sensitive topics.

  15. #65
    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    I think it's funny that this thread started out as a slam on Exy for being a transphobe, yet at this point he's the one providing the most cogent and accessible explanations of this stuff.

    Bravo, Exy.
    "You laugh at me because I'm different; I laugh at you because I'm on nitrous."

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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    Yes, exactly. I did some research for a short story I wrote once and the process of sexual differentiation in embryos is so complicated and there is such a spectrum of ways it can go a little bit awry that it's mind-boggling. My tendency is to think that being gay is probably also fundamentally due to some sort of "disorder" (not meant to imply a value judgment) caused by sexual differentiation being just slightly screwed up.
    I've wondered that myself, to be honest. If ultimately homosexuality and transgenderism are actually in the same league as intersex disorders, only differentiation is in the brain rather than other organs. When I was fourteen and discovered that intersex conditions existed my first thought was that it explained how I felt about my body. Except my body appears to be perfectly and completely female. Just my brain is different.

    And on preview: Yeah, questions are great.

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    Exy and Jim, you guys are starting to make me feel bad. I'm feeling like I'm joining in some sort of dogpiling, and I think we're all actually just trying to be helpful!

  18. #68
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    Oy, I am so glad this thread has moved beyond maligning my hygiene.

  19. #69
    The Apostabulous Inner Stickler's avatar
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    And one time I saw that Artifex didn't wash her hands after handling raw chicken.


    47 people died.
    I don't think so, therefore I'm probably not.

  20. #70
    Elephant artifex's avatar
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    46! They told me that one of the children pulled through...

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally posted by artifex View post
    Oy, I am so glad this thread has moved beyond maligning my hygiene.
    I think we've resolved the serious issues now, so everyone's hygiene is up for grabs. As it were.

  22. #72
    The Apostabulous Inner Stickler's avatar
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    /me grabs everyone's hygiene and gives it a squeeze
    I don't think so, therefore I'm probably not.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally posted by Inner Stickler View post
    handling raw chicken.
    On further reflection, I'm thinking that this is a euphemism for something.

  24. #74
    Jesus F'ing Christ Glazer's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Inner Stickler View post
    /me grabs everyone's hygiene and gives it a squeeze
    Stop it ,that tickles!
    Welcome to Mellophant.

    We started with nothing and we still have most of it left.

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    Quote Originally posted by Inner Stickler View post
    /me grabs everyone's hygiene and gives it a squeeze
    I don't know if that's a good idea - it was in the upper 80s here in the Northeast today.

  26. #76
    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hatshepsut View post
    On further reflection, I'm thinking that this is a euphemism for something.
    It wasn't boneless...
    "You laugh at me because I'm different; I laugh at you because I'm on nitrous."

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