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Thread: Dialectal Indulgences

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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    Default Dialectal Indulgences

    http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vl...TSPWFY-Sco.pdf

    I know Scots is a vibrant and somewhat discreet dialect of English but I wonder what good brochures like the above do. It just seems like a magnet for ridicule. Similar material is produced for Ulster-Scots in Northern Ireland and it's all a little bit embarrassing. Like with so much in Northern Ireland the promotion of the Ulster-Scots dialect has a political underpinning. The Good Friday Agreement provided for parity of esteem between the two main communities in Northern Ireland. It is common enough, although far from universal, for Republican/Catholics to study and speak the Irish language so Ulster-Scots has been used by the Unionist/Protestant community to balance emphasis and funding. While the Good Friday Agreement actually encompasses Ulster-Scots culture it doesn't provide specific allocation for the promotion of the Ulster-Scots dialect.

    It is a bit obscure, but I'd like to discuss this with relation to all forms of non-standard English, to what extent should they be promoted in any official capacity? Should print media be available in these dialects? Would you read a publication or website in your particular English dialect (other than for lulz)?

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    Just to add, this topic is also germane to other languages so if you have specific knowledge of dialect concerns within others go ahead and use them in this discussion.

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    Are you sure the brochure isn't an April Fool joke?

    Just in case it isn't, I also think it is a ridiculous idea. IANALinguist, but it seems to me that "English" is just a mongrelisation of all other related languages, into something that everyone can decipher, no matter what particular region you come from.

    If the vast majority of people in the country had spoke with a Scottish dialect, that would have been the "English" of today, but we'd be calling it Scottish.
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    No it definitely is not a joke, unless a long standing one. I can give you other examples of stuff written dialectally. Wikipedia has a version in Scots, here's their article on Ulster-Scots http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_leid

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    Well, if it isn't a joke, it should be. What is the point of clinging to a form of communication that only a small percentage of the population can understand, nevermind trying to promote it? Notice how the people who speak these dialects are a little secluded from the rest of the region --- there's a reason for that.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 01 Apr 2010 at 05:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally posted by An Gadaí View post
    No it definitely is not a joke, unless a long standing one. I can give you other examples of stuff written dialectally. Wikipedia has a version in Scots, here's their article on Ulster-Scots http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_leid
    If they are going to make up their own words, why don't they go the whole hog and make up their own letters, as well?
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    Well, if it isn't a joke, it should be. What is the point of clinging to a form of communication that only a small percentage of the population can understand, nevermind trying to promote it?
    Well in Scotland, I'd say most people understand or can speak Scots.
    I suppose it is to do with identity. I hadn't thought of the political dimension with regard to Scotland but perhap the promotion of the dialect as a discreet language is to further the project of an independent Scotland. While Scotland does have a separate language from English (Scots Gaelic) it is only a minority language and indeed was never spoken widely in the Lowlands.

    People cling to a particular form of communication because they believe it underpins their identity, amongst other reasons.

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    "We are how we speak", sorta thing? It's a very insular way of interacting with the world then.

    If everyone had steadfastly stuck to their own regional dialect, would we even have the English language?
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    Quote Originally posted by An Gadaí View post
    It is a bit obscure, but I'd like to discuss this with relation to all forms of non-standard English, to what extent should they be promoted in any official capacity?
    To the extent the citizens want their government to promote it, naturally.


    Should print media be available in these dialects?
    Why not? Print material will be available in minority languages if there's demand, and it won't be if there isn't. I don't know anything about Ulster-Scots, but in regard to Scots I know that partisans favor describing it as a separate language.

    Realistically I don't think it's terribly important, since any literate Scotsman will be literate in English and even if they speak Scots normally they'd probably still find it easier to read English, due to years of practice, but if people want to promote acquiring literacy in schoolchildren or whatever, they'll vote for it and the government should comply.


    Would you read a publication or website in your particular English dialect (other than for lulz)?
    My particular English dialect is the one that's privileged in this country so it's a moot point; virtually everything I read in English is written in my dialect, or one that's different only in minuscule ways.

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    That's exactly like trying to read Trainspotting. It's not a dialect as much as it seems to be a phonetic spelling of how certain words are pronounced mixed with a bit of slang.

    It's like Scottish Ebonics.
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    I can't believe the level of ignorance and chauvinism being displayed by some people. People speak whatever language they speak because that is what their parents spoke. And their parents spoke the same language for the same reason.

    I find it obnoxious that anyone would say "why don't they just get with the program and speak English like God-fearing people ought to do?". You see the same thing in the USA with Mexicans. The Anglos stole half of Mexico, and now tell the Spanish speakers they should speak English. Fuck that.

    Scots have all the right in the world to speak whatever they please. It is enough that the English subjugated them for centuries and killed many of them. My own Scottish ancestors had to flee Scotland for their lives because they were Catholic. Fuck that. If you don't like Scots then just don't go to Scotland.

    If Scotland had won those wars and would have remained an independent country today Scots would be their language and nobody would have anything to say. As they say, a language is a dialect with an army. Much like Portuguese is considered a separate language and not a dialect of Spanish.

    You have to be extremely ignorant to disparage the Scots language. Ever heard of Robert Burns? 'Nuff said.

    I give you .

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    Quote Originally posted by Cluricaun View post
    That's exactly like trying to read Trainspotting. It's not a dialect as much as it seems to be a phonetic spelling of how certain words are pronounced mixed with a bit of slang.

    It's like Scottish Ebonics.
    Well, it's the same language as Trainspotting, hence the similarity.

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    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    Well, it's the same language as Trainspotting, hence the similarity.
    Of course, what I was after is that I'm shocked to find out that there are people who think that's a legitimate language. Trainspotting wasn't written in another language, it was just.....well it was just a pain in the ass until you got the hang of it and then it just helped draw you further into the story. But a language? It's just bad English. I could see calling it a patois or pidgin, but that's about it.
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    Quote Originally posted by Cluricaun View post
    Of course, what I was after is that I'm shocked to find out that there are people who think that's a legitimate language. Trainspotting wasn't written in another language, it was just.....well it was just a pain in the ass until you got the hang of it and then it just helped draw you further into the story. But a language? It's just bad English. I could see calling it a patois or pidgin, but that's about it.
    Look, honestly, and sorry to sound so rude, but it would take more time than I have to deconstruct all the things wrong with this post.

    ETA: I've never read Trainspotting so I don't know whether or not it's actually written in what would be recognized as Scots or some variety of Scots-flavored English. I'm sure it's at least written with an eye to make it readable to English-speakers.
    Last edited by Exy; 01 Apr 2010 at 04:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    Look, honestly, and sorry to sound so rude, but it would take more time than I have to deconstruct all the things wrong with this post.

    ETA: I've never read Trainspotting so I don't know whether or not it's actually written in what would be recognized as Scots or some variety of Scots-flavored English. I'm sure it's at least written with an eye to make it readable to English-speakers.
    "Chapters narrated by Renton are written with Scots dialogue terms spelled phonetically, which conveys the character's accent and use of Scots, while Davie's chapters ("Bad Blood", "Traditional Sunday Breakfast") are narrated in Scottish English with dialogue appearing phonetically. Other chapters are written from a third-person omniscient stance (in Standard English) to cover the actions and thoughts of different characters simultaneously."

    While I can accept it may be considered as a spoken language, like Hatian patois, it's just odd to consider it a proper language when written.
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    Ryan, I hate to disagree with you here but my dialect (Hiberno-English: Dublin) would be considered wrong by your schema. And I think that is nonsense, my dialect is great!

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    I know I tend to be bitchy about this and I know a lot of people don't have the knowledge and interest in minority language issues that I do. But it's frustrating to try to explain, again and again, that stigmatized dialects or languages aren't actually objectively inferior to prestige varieties. There's no rational argument to be made that they are, but people cling to that belief nonetheless. It's exhausting in the way it would be if I had to explain over and over, say, that black people or women aren't inherently stupid.

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    I can't help but read that in Groundskeeper Willie's voice.

    Quote Originally posted by United States Department of Housing and Urban Development
    Li ilegal pou fè diskriminasyon kont nenpòt moun akoz ras, koulè, relijyon, sèks, andikap, eta familyal, oswa orijin nasyonal
    http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/prom...eole_Flyer.pdf

    There's a LOT of documents by US government agencies printed in phonetic English creole.
    Last edited by elmwood; 03 Apr 2010 at 12:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally posted by elmwood View post
    I can't help but read that in Groundskeeper Willie's voice.



    http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/prom...eole_Flyer.pdf

    There's a LOT of documents by US government agencies printed in phonetic English creole.
    I'm pretty certain that's not any kind of English creole. In fact it looks like Haitian Creole to me. Which, of course, has French as its lexifier.

    ETA: Having downloaded it, it's definitely Haitian Creole. I wouldn't be able to read it at all if I didn't speak (some) French. Although it's still not enough to make out everything.
    Last edited by Exy; 03 Apr 2010 at 12:41 AM.

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    Their Eyes Were Watching God was written in dialect and I love the way the language put me in the story.

    I can't imagine standard English as being as effective in conveying the feelings of the characters and the time they lived in.
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    Quote Originally posted by jali View post
    Their Eyes Were Watching God was written in dialect and I love the way the language put me in the story.

    I can't imagine standard English as being as effective in conveying the feelings of the characters and the time they lived in.
    Oh, fantastic observation, jali. It wouldn't have been as effective and it would have felt incredibly fake to not write in dialect, compared to how utterly human the characters were.

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    I've never read it but apparently Riddley Walker is great in the same vein, in this instance though the author made up a post-apocalyptic English dialect.

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    I've no objection to dialect being used in literature, but I'm not sure it is the way forward when it comes to communicating with the rest of the world. Clinging to a language/dialect that few people are using, and expecting to impose it on the wider world, is like clinging to a shipbuilding industry when nobody is buying ships.
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    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    I'm pretty certain that's not any kind of English creole. In fact it looks like Haitian Creole to me. Which, of course, has French as its lexifier.

    ETA: Having downloaded it, it's definitely Haitian Creole. I wouldn't be able to read it at all if I didn't speak (some) French. Although it's still not enough to make out everything.
    Is Haitian Creole not inherently inferior to other languages? AIUI, it's not a written language at all, really. The vast majority of people who speak only HC are illiterate; what we have as a written version is a modern construction, more to be read to Creole speakers than for them to read to themselves. The people I've known from Haiti, or who have lived in Haiti, say the people who can read in Haiti can read French or English; nobody "reads" HC.

    Is it not a handicap to grow up knowing only that language?
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    Quote Originally posted by OneCentStamp View post
    Is Haitian Creole not inherently inferior to other languages? AIUI, it's not a written language at all, really. The vast majority of people who speak only HC are illiterate; what we have as a written version is a modern construction, more to be read to Creole speakers than for them to read to themselves. The people I've known from Haiti, or who have lived in Haiti, say the people who can read in Haiti can read French or English; nobody "reads" HC.

    Is it not a handicap to grow up knowing only that language?
    I'm not sure you should talk about languages in a purely utilitarian sense. The language(s) one speaks are a a cornerstone of identity and not easily dismissed because they are impractical. By that logic everyone on earth should just speak English or Esperanto and to hell with everything else. Such practice was commonplace in Europe in the 19th Century, the Irish language for one was marginalised, with a propagandistic notion that it was incompatible with modernity somehow.
    The status of a language as a dialect is often due to the political and economic power of its speakers rather than its similarity or otherwise to other languages. Similar things happened in France, Spain and other countries. I imagine Haitians can develop economically and socially without eschewing their unique dialect. From wikipedia:

    "The use of Creole in literature has been small but is increasing. Morisseau was one of the first and most influential authors to write in Creole. Since the 1980s, many educators, writers and activists have written literature in Creole. Today numerous newspapers, as well as radio and television programs, are produced in Creole."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Creole_language

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    Quote Originally posted by jali View post
    Their Eyes Were Watching God was written in dialect and I love the way the language put me in the story.

    I can't imagine standard English as being as effective in conveying the feelings of the characters and the time they lived in.
    It really wasn't, though. The dialogue was in dialect, which it of course had to be, but the narration wasn't.

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    Quote Originally posted by OneCentStamp View post
    Is Haitian Creole not inherently inferior to other languages? AIUI, it's not a written language at all, really. The vast majority of people who speak only HC are illiterate; what we have as a written version is a modern construction, more to be read to Creole speakers than for them to read to themselves. The people I've known from Haiti, or who have lived in Haiti, say the people who can read in Haiti can read French or English; nobody "reads" HC.
    Yeah, any Haitian who is literate is literate in French. It's not widely used as a written language (but then, most languages are not written.) I don't see how that makes it "inherently inferior", though.


    Quote Originally posted by OneCentStamp
    Is it not a handicap to grow up knowing only that language?
    It's a handicap to grow up in Haiti, whatever language you speak. (It's a handicap to grow up in Guyana, too, even though most people there speak English.)

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    So, why hamper yourself further by doggedly insisting on using a language/dialect that only yours and several other families in a region understand? You can wish and whine all you want, but that isn't going to make the rest of the world want to speak like you.
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    So, why hamper yourself further by doggedly insisting on using a language/dialect that only yours and several other families in a region understand? You can wish and whine all you want, but that isn't going to make the rest of the world want to speak like you.
    Who said anything about making the rest of the world speak like them? The point is to keep it alive for those who speak it and their children, as it's part of their culture.

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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    So, why hamper yourself further by doggedly insisting on using a language/dialect that only yours and several other families in a region understand? You can wish and whine all you want, but that isn't going to make the rest of the world want to speak like you.
    No one has said anything about trying to make everyone else "speak like you".

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    Being "a part of your culture" isn't the be all and end all of why a practice should be continued.

    Latin was a part of the Roman/Italian culture for a long time, but the only people speaking it now are priests stuck in a medieval time warp.

    If Latin can be allowed to die out except for in literature and archaic rituals, why should Highland Gobbledegook be spared?
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 04 Apr 2010 at 02:56 PM.
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    You're correct. The languages of Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian, Romanian, and Catalan (among others) took over where Latin was once the official language. They descended from a number of sociolects and dialects of Latin, which are what the common people actually spoke.

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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    Being "a part of your culture" isn't the be all and end all of why a practice should be continued.

    Latin was a part of the Roman/Italian culture for a long time, but the only people speaking it now are priests stuck in a medieval time warp.

    If Latin can be allowed to die out except for in literature and archaic rituals, why should Highland Gobbledegook be spared?
    Because its speakers don't want it to?

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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    You're correct. The languages of Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian, Romanian, and Catalan (among others) took over where Latin was once the official language. They descended from a number of sociolects and dialects of Latin, which are what the common people actually spoke.
    And it was done for a progressive reason. If they wanted to carry out acts of commerce, it helped if they could speak something other than Latin, hence they had to learn others ways of communicating, not focus more intently on promoting their own language. Languages/dialects seem to work by Darwinian Selection and the least useful/effective ones are destined to drop by the wayside.
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    And it was done for a progressive reason. If they wanted to carry out acts of commerce, it helped if they could speak something other than Latin, hence they had to learn others ways of communicating, not focus more intently on promoting their own language. Languages/dialects seem to work by Darwinian Selection and the least useful/effective ones are destined to drop by the wayside.
    Uh, no. It was done for the same reasons any dialect becomes a language: those languages are what the people spoke. For commerce, Latin would have been more useful because people would all speak the same instead of all speaking separate dialects. But local identities took hold and people began speaking in ways that emphasized their local culture.

    Evolution describes biological processes. It really fails when used as anything more than a vague metaphor for something social or cultural.

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    Quote Originally posted by An Gadaí View post
    Because its speakers don't want it to?
    And that's fair enough, but if you want to interact with the rest of the world, is the non-Highland Gobbledegook speaking person obliged to learn your language, or is the onus on you to learn theirs? Pretend you own a tourist shop and you get a lot of outsiders coming in.
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    And it was done for a progressive reason. If they wanted to carry out acts of commerce, it helped if they could speak something other than Latin, hence they had to learn others ways of communicating, not focus more intently on promoting their own language. Languages/dialects seem to work by Darwinian Selection and the least useful/effective ones are destined to drop by the wayside.
    Except, of course, what had been one language became dozens.

    So that does the exact opposite of supporting your point, actually.

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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    Uh, no. It was done for the same reasons any dialect becomes a language: those languages are what the people spoke. For commerce, Latin would have been more useful because people would all speak the same instead of all speaking separate dialects. But local identities took hold and people began speaking in ways that emphasized their local culture.

    Evolution describes biological processes. It really fails when used as anything more than a vague metaphor for something social or cultural.
    From my inexpert understanding of linguistics, it seems that languages/dialects are as prone to the vagaries of human interaction as any organic or biological process.
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    From my inexpert understanding of linguistics, it seems that languages/dialects are as prone to the vagaries of human interaction as any organic or biological process.
    That sentence doesn't even mean anything.

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    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    That sentence doesn't even mean anything.
    I'm disagreeing with zuul's claim that languages can not be said to evolve.

    Does that help?

    Or, they are as prone to external influences as a human is to a germ.

    Two notable defining moments in the history of the Italian language came between 1500 and 1850. Both events were invasions. The rulers of Spain invaded and occupied Italy down to Rome and the Vatican in the mid-16th century (see the aftermath of the Italian Wars). This occupation left a lasting influence upon the formerly irregular Italian grammar, simplifying it to conform more with the dominant Spanish language. The second was the conquest and occupation of Italy by Napoleon in the early 19th century (who was himself of Italian-Corsican descent). This conquest propelled the unification of Italy, and pushed the Italian language into a lingua franca. The increased unity among people on the Italian peninsula weakened many regional languages.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 04 Apr 2010 at 03:50 PM.
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    Maybe there's occasionally some utility it using "evolution" as a metaphor for describing how languages change but no such circumstances occurs to me.

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    I put the DU in DUMBO. Dangerously Unqualified's avatar
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    Is it also not possible that, as language evolves into dialects, it facilitates a social evolution based on one's ability to adapt and understand various dialects and therefor precludes a broader social evolution overall?

    If communication is essential to survival then those within the constraints of a linguistic dialect depend on each other to survive, those who have the ability to span various dialects and cultures have the ability to survive and thrive without such constraints.

    Maybe.

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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    My ability to interact and communicate with the wider world is dependent on how well my vocabulary has evolved and my ability to use it. Limiting the amount of words I know to only those spoken in my region, and insisting on using them regardless of who I am speaking with, is the equivalent of building a barrier between myself and the outside world. That won't allow me to evolve, nevermind the dialect I speak with.


    ps. You have made my point better than me, DU.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 04 Apr 2010 at 04:13 PM.
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    I put the DU in DUMBO. Dangerously Unqualified's avatar
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    I just figured y'all came up with the bloody language so you can do whatever the hell you want with it.

    I'm just along for the ride


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    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    Yeah, any Haitian who is literate is literate in French. It's not widely used as a written language (but then, most languages are not written.) I don't see how that makes it "inherently inferior", though.
    A language's function is to allow people to communicate with each other, and these days, a huge part of that is reading and writing. It seems a huge disadvantage to only speak a language that nobody, or almost nobody, is writing books or newspapers or websites in.

    I encountered the same thing living in Ecuador, dealing with people who spoke only Quechua. There is no written Quechua - only a phonetic approximation of it for Spanish speakers. The few books "translated into Quechua" are not really for Quechua speakers, because if they can read, they read it in Spanish. The books are pronunciation guides so that someone literate in Spanish can read it to them.

    That flaw in the language - no history of writing - places a native Quechua speaker at a large disadvantage over a Spanish speaker who lives in the same city and at approximately the same level of wealth, but has access to enormous amounts of information that the Quechua speaker doesn't.
    "You laugh at me because I'm different; I laugh at you because I'm on nitrous."

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    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dangerously Unqualified View post
    I just figured y'all came up with the bloody language so you can do whatever the hell you want with it.

    I'm just along for the ride

    Welcome back, DU! :smile:
    "You laugh at me because I'm different; I laugh at you because I'm on nitrous."

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    Quote Originally posted by OneCentStamp View post
    A language's function is to allow people to communicate with each other, and these days, a huge part of that is reading and writing. It seems a huge disadvantage to only speak a language that nobody, or almost nobody, is writing books or newspapers or websites in.
    But then, you're talking about people who are largely illiterate. It's ridiculous to talk about the limited use of a language in writing as something wrong with the language, when the problem is that some places have almost universal illiteracy. It's not any better in places where the population is largely illiterate but speak a major world language.


    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    My ability to interact and communicate with the wider world is dependent on how well my vocabulary has evolved and my ability to use it. Limiting the amount of words I know to only those spoken in my region, and insisting on using them regardless of who I am speaking with, is the equivalent of building a barrier between myself and the outside world. That won't allow me to evolve, nevermind the dialect I speak with.
    Uh, good thing no one recommended that, then.

    By the way, stop referring to language "evolving" until you can come up with a meaningful definition for "evolve" in that context, because language change doesn't resemble "evolution" in the context that term is typically used in (i.e. the evolution of living things).

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dangerously Unqualified View post
    I just figured y'all came up with the bloody language so you can do whatever the hell you want with it.

    I'm just along for the ride

    Dude, great to see you back. Hope to see more of you.

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    I put the DU in DUMBO. Dangerously Unqualified's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    By the way, stop referring to language "evolving" until you can come up with a meaningful definition for "evolve" in that context, because language change doesn't resemble "evolution" in the context that term is typically used in (i.e. the evolution of living things).
    Certainly language evolves, exhibiting qualities of macroevolution at it's finest.

    Take an archaic word like "thou". It it's time it was widely used and understood but eventually "you" took over. I'm sure "you" started slowly; "you" was only used by a few people, then a few more. In time "you" was used by a lot of people. As the venacular changed "you" became more popular and "thou" slowly faded from common use.

    Oh, we remember "thou", we remember it well. A few scraps of literature may still toss "thou" in from time to time. But "you" has largely evolved to take over as the dominant term.

    Perhaps in the future "you" will be slowly replaced by another, possibly the truncated "yo" (which already has crept in as "your" replacement). But for now "you" is the "fittest" term and therefore continues to dominate the the top of the word chain.

    Another example is "d'oh" but I won't go into that.

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    Quote Originally posted by Dangerously Unqualified View post
    Certainly language evolves, exhibiting qualities of macroevolution at it's finest.

    Take an archaic word like "thou". It it's time it was widely used and understood but eventually "you" took over. I'm sure "you" started slowly; "you" was only used by a few people, then a few more. In time "you" was used by a lot of people. As the venacular changed "you" became more popular and "thou" slowly faded from common use.

    Oh, we remember "thou", we remember it well. A few scraps of literature may still toss "thou" in from time to time. But "you" has largely evolved to take over as the dominant term.

    Perhaps in the future "you" will be slowly replaced by another, possibly the truncated "yo" (which already has crept in as "your" replacement). But for now "you" is the "fittest" term and therefore continues to dominate the the top of the word chain.

    Another example is "d'oh" but I won't go into that.
    Language changes. It doesn't evolve. What you're describing doesn't resemble evolution at all.

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