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Thread: Boy Scouts take it in the shorts?

  1. #1
    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    Default Boy Scouts take it in the shorts?

    As individuals, and now possibly as an organization?

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35944804...ime_and_courts

    Quote Originally posted by MSN excerpt
    PORTLAND, Ore. - The Boy Scouts of America has long kept an extensive archive of secret documents that chronicle the sexual abuse of young boys by Scout leaders over the years.

    The "perversion files," a nickname the Boy Scouts are said to have used for the documents, have rarely been seen by the public, but that could all change in the coming weeks in an Oregon courtroom.

    The lawyer for a man who was molested in the 1980s by a Scout leader has obtained about 1,000 Boy Scouts sex files and is expected to release some of them at a trial that began Wednesday. The lawyer says the files show how the Boy Scouts have covered up abuse for decades.

    The trial is significant because the files could offer a rare window into how the Boy Scouts have responded to sex abuse by Scout leaders. The only other time the documents are believed to have been presented at a trial was in the 1980s in Virginia.

    At the start of the Oregon trial, attorney Kelly Clark recited the Boy Scout oath and the promise to obey Scout law to be "trustworthy." Then he presented six boxes of documents that he said will show "how the Boy Scouts of America broke that oath."

    He held up file folder after file folder he said contained reports of abuse from around the country, telling the jury the efforts to keep them secret may have actually set back efforts to prevent child abuse nationally.

    "The Boy Scouts of America ignored clear warning signs that Boy Scouts were being abused," Clark said.
    The rest of the article goes on to implicate the Boy Scouts as an organization, as well as the Mormon church, which is one of the biggest sponsors of Boy Scout troops in the world. As a former Boy Scout and former Mormon (no, I wasn't molested, and I'd tell you if I was), I'm following this with some interest.

    With mountains of anecdotal evidence, punchlines, and stories over the decades, is this when something finally sticks to the Boy Scouts in a legal sense? Will the Scouts be the Catholic Church of the 2010s?
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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Oh my God. That is deeply disturbing. I've heard stories about boys being molested in there before, but had no idea that the organization itself was part of covering it up.

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    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    Oh my God. That is deeply disturbing. I've heard stories about boys being molested in there before, but had no idea that the organization itself was part of covering it up.
    Exactly why I drew the comparison to the RCC; everyone kind of knew about kid-diddling priests, and it was the target of black humor, but generally assumed to be a case of a few bad apples in a very large bin. After the scandal, it wasn't even funny anymore because the organization's complicity was laid bare, and it was so horrible.
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    Stegodon Fink-Nottle's avatar
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    What the fuck is wrong with people?!? Who hears about an adult sexually abusing a child and immediately starts planning how to cover it up instead of how to get away with killing the mutherfucker?

    And when will people learn that the crime itself almost never takes you down, it's the cover up!
    This tastes like the circus smells.

  5. #5
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    This is not shocking at all to me. Sorry to say, it seems like a natural place for predators. The first scout leader my son had was not one I would ever had left him with. Skeevy dude.

    My lord, imagine a large national or international organization covering up a disgrace and allowing it to just get worse and worse. Shocking, only a little, I think it is sadly business as usual.

  6. #6
    Stegodon Fink-Nottle's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by OneCentStamp View post
    Exactly why I drew the comparison to the RCC; everyone kind of knew about kid-diddling priests, and it was the target of black humor, but generally assumed to be a case of a few bad apples in a very large bin. After the scandal, it wasn't even funny anymore because the organization's complicity was laid bare, and it was so horrible.
    Exactly to my point. If the stupid church had immediately outsted and turned out the molestors and gone the whole "a few bad apples" route, then I think they wouldn't be vilified and hemorrhaging members. Shit happens after all. But the fact that they COVERED IT UP and repeatedly moved these monsters to work with other unsuspecting family is just unthinkably evil. It basically becomes the church condoning molesting children.
    This tastes like the circus smells.

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    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    I'm sorry to see this evidence come to light. Not to say that I think that the evidence should be hidden, just that it's sad to see confirmation of my beliefs following the Catholic Church's example.

    IMNSHO, far too many people have been focusing on the Catholic Church's celibacy requirements as a handy explanation for why the abuse there happened. And that, IMNSHO, misses the mark rather badly - and makes it possible for other organizations to continue to follow the same pattern of burying the evidence, hiding the offenders, and moving them to different areas.

    To be blunt, I believe that there is far too much political comfort to be found by a number of people who ought to be thinking more broadly when they can simply point to pedophilia, and the systemic enabling (if only by inaction) by organizations as a distinctly Catholic hubris.

    It's not. The 2007 AP study on child sexual abuse in the public schools should have been the wake up call. It wasn't.

    Maybe this will be, but I don't think so.

    Until the public and lawmakers accept that the natural and inevitable response any organization that discovers such actions going on is that it will act first to protect it's own image, then work its damage control within the overriding demands of protecting its own public face, this sort of shit is going to keep happening. And keep happening. And keep happening.

    I'll admit, one reason that I'm so furious about this mess is that I have met more than a few people being treated within the mental health circles as a basis of systemic, and ongoing abuse they encountered within the umbrella of care under CPS and foster care. When those files finally come out, maybe people will wake up, and admit that as things are set up, now, the best way for a child predator to hide his or her perversions is within the umbrella of an organization dedicated to serving the interests of children. Because even if anything comes out, more often than not the bureaucracy will hide any evidence of wrong doing.

    I know there have been public incidents were CPS in various states have been slapped with punitive measures - because they had allowed one abuser, or another, access to children. My belief, however, is that they have their own pedophile files, which has yet to come to light.

    Whatever the potential consequences, I do hope that these files, if they are as described here, are used to hammer the organizations.

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    I wish this shocked me more, but then, I'm pretty used to hearing jokes about scouts being touched by scoutmasters too.

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    Free Exy Cluricaun's avatar
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    It's a shame really. One of my best friend's dad has been a Scout leader for as long as anyone can remember, the man lives and breathes three things: The Catholic Church, Youth Football, and The Boy Scouts of America. Seriously, this is a guy who perfects cookie recipes so they can be done it batches of 500 at a time. He actually loves leathercrafting and does it in his spare time so that he can be a better teacher. Dude can make pancakes like a machine. He's gotten more kids to Eagle Scout than anyone in the history of Illinois scouting. He and his wife are the nicest people that I've ever known, they're the kind of folks that you'd kill to have as neighbors, his mom is the kind of lady that everyone ends up calling "Mom".

    Problem is for every single guy like Jim, there's at least three creepy weirdos. The abuse is heartbreaking, but so is the downfall of the Scouts, because at it's heart it's an awesome organization.
    Hell, if I didn't do things just because they made me feel a bit ridiculous, I wouldn't have much of a social life. - Santo Rugger.

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    Well at least they don't let the gays into the scouts. Just pedophiles. Think how much worse it would be if they let normal, teleophile gay men lead troops.

  11. #11
    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Cluricaun View post
    The abuse is heartbreaking, but so is the downfall of the Scouts, because at it's heart it's an awesome organization.
    I'm torn. On the one hand, I have fond memories of my own years in Scouting. Even though I gave up on progressing through the ranks at about age 15, I remained active in it throughout junior high and high school. I learned a lot there; while I don't carve soapstone much these days, or start fires using tinder, I learned valuable lessons nonetheless.

    Yet in spite of that, there's no possible way I would want my own sons to join, and that's completely independent of the whole molestation scandal. It's about their positions on homosexuals and atheists.
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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by OneCentStamp View post
    It's about their positions on homosexuals and atheists.
    At first I read this as:

    It's about their positions as homoexuals and atheists.
    ...and was somewhat confused.

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    The Apostabulous Inner Stickler's avatar
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    I have no interest in the Boy Scouts of America until they are the Scouts of America.

    And yes, I'm aware of the presence of the Girl Scouts but the two organizations very rarely teach similar things. I would love to see the two combine and kids regardless of gender be taught the "manly" wilderness survival skills and the "girly" cooking and crafting skills.
    I don't think so, therefore I'm probably not.

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    Free Exy Cluricaun's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by OneCentStamp View post
    Yet in spite of that, there's no possible way I would want my own sons to join, and that's completely independent of the whole molestation scandal. It's about their positions on homosexuals and atheists.
    Before I knew my buddies dad and my stepfather I used to hate on the Scouts pretty hard, but there's a lot of people who took a lot of good stuff away from it. I don't agree with the Jeebus and the Homo Hatin either, but you knew that already.

    I have no first hand Scouting myself, the neighborhood leader hated me when I was a kid since I was something of a juvinile delinquent and he knew I was only in it for the pocket knife.

    Maybe it's time for a new organization to take root and replace the Scouts that has the positive aspects as well as a merit badge in Stabbing Mr. Touchy in the Sack as a requirement.
    Hell, if I didn't do things just because they made me feel a bit ridiculous, I wouldn't have much of a social life. - Santo Rugger.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Inner Stickler View post
    I have no interest in the Boy Scouts of America until they are the Scouts of America.

    And yes, I'm aware of the presence of the Girl Scouts but the two organizations very rarely teach similar things. I would love to see the two combine and kids regardless of gender be taught the "manly" wilderness survival skills and the "girly" cooking and crafting skills.
    In some countries (but not the US ) the Cub Scouts are open to both genders.

    I cannot personally recall any cooking lessons in the Girl Scouts. I do remember how to blaze trails and stack stones to communicate with others following you, how to tie knots, how to make fire starters with wax, chemistry experiments, putting on plays, and all sorts of little things. I stopped going when I was in second grade, though.

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    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Inner Stickler View post
    I would love to see the two combine and kids regardless of gender be taught the "manly" wilderness survival skills and the "girly" cooking and crafting skills.
    When I was in fourth and fifth grades, we had 4H Club during school once a month. Yeah, the farmer thing, but it went beyond that. We went to camp for a week in the summer, where we could learn archery and leather craft, play sports, learn sign language, and all kinds of stuff like that.

    It's kind of what I thought Scouting was supposed to be like, but Scouting in my area was ten kinds of non-gender-specific lame.

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    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Marsilia View post
    When I was in fourth and fifth grades, we had 4H Club during school once a month. Yeah, the farmer thing, but it went beyond that. We went to camp for a week in the summer, where we could learn archery and leather craft, play sports, learn sign language, and all kinds of stuff like that
    4H always struck me, from the outside, as being much more interesting than Scouting. Of course, such clubs were damned rare in Yuppieville.

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    The Apostabulous Inner Stickler's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    I cannot personally recall any cooking lessons in the Girl Scouts. I do remember how to blaze trails and stack stones to communicate with others following you, how to tie knots, how to make fire starters with wax, chemistry experiments, putting on plays, and all sorts of little things. I stopped going when I was in second grade, though.
    Perhaps it was just my area. My mom led my sister's girl scout troop for several years and getting the organization to approve anything remotely grubby was almost impossible. You were very lucky, I think.
    I don't think so, therefore I'm probably not.

  19. #19
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Inner Stickler View post
    Perhaps it was just my area. My mom led my sister's girl scout troop for several years and getting the organization to approve anything remotely grubby was almost impossible. You were very lucky, I think.
    I must have been. We only went on one camping trip, which ended up being in a trailer because of rain instead of in tents, so it wasn't ever really "roughing it", but most of our projects and badges seemed to center around science and survival skills. I can likely thank my mom for that.

    When I have kids I'd love for them to have the opportunity to be part of a scouting organization that isn't gender exclusive or taking anti-homosexuality and anti-atheist stances. And, you know, isn't pro-molestation.

  20. #20
    Elephant artifex's avatar
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    That's exactly the frustrating thing. I would love to have the kids in an organization like that - particularly our bookish videogaming nerdy 8 yo - but not in that sort of sociopolitical environment. Godless liberals can want their kids to learn to survive outdoors, too.

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    Clueless but well-meaning Hatshepsut's avatar
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    I wouldn't want the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts to ever merge, because the latter organization (at least overall; I'm sure individual troops/towns have been different) has been far more reasonable than the former. While the stupid Boy Scouts fret about homosekshuals, the Girl Scouts are generally pretty progressive. (I offer up this random web page as support for the idea that lesbians have generally felt free of discrimination in scouting: http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/girl_scouts.html ).

    Although I had misgivings about letting him join, my son was a Boy Scout in Egypt. The Boy Scouts had a rule against Egyptians joining, which I initially assumed must be due to an Egyptian law forbidding children from join foreign organizations, and not the fault of the Scouts themselves (it would be totally in keeping with the Egyptian mentality to promulgate such a law). However, this was apparently not the case, as the Girl Scouts allowed both foreign and Egyptian girls to join.

    Moreover, all kids in the Boy Scout troop had to salute the American flag and pledge allegiance to it. Since a few of the Scouts were French, Australian, etc., I thought that was a truly bizarre requirement.

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    Jesus F'ing Christ Glazer's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hatshepsut View post
    Moreover, all kids in the Boy Scout troop had to salute the American flag and pledge allegiance to it. Since a few of the Scouts were French, Australian, etc., I thought that was a truly bizarre requirement.
    Why bizarre? The Boy Scouts are an American Organization. They have always taught patriotism and American values. I think it's great that children from other countries can join and learn the ideals we strive for. I think they should have let Egyptian boys in as well. But I don't think the Scouts should change for a few foreign boys.

    I do think the Scouts should update the values they teach to be more in line with the values American socity has as a whole. And not the prejudices of the past that we are trying to grow out of. The Scouts should try to lead the way and grow leaders. Not try to hold back time and handicap their charges.
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    Clueless but well-meaning Hatshepsut's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Glazer View post
    Why bizarre? The Boy Scouts are an American Organization. They have always taught patriotism and American values. I think it's great that children from other countries can join and learn the ideals we strive for. I think they should have let Egyptian boys in as well. But I don't think the Scouts should change for a few foreign boys.
    At the risk of sounding (a) obtuse; and/or (b) like a dirty old lady...

    Where is your tongue while you're saying that?

    Why on earth would the Boy Scouts insist that everyone, no matter what their nationality, pledge allegiance to the American flag? Such declarations couldn't possibly be sincere, and who would want them to be?

    The way I see it, either don't allow anyone except Americans to join, or allow non-Americans to join, but don't force them to pretend they are promising fealty to a nation they are not a citizen of. By forcing them to do so, you are only admitting that it is a hollow, meaningless pledge in the first place. And I don't think that's the message that the Boy Scouts agree with.

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    Jesus F'ing Christ Glazer's avatar
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    I see your point. FWIW I don't think the pledge should ever be mandatory. Except for induction to the armed forces or such. But the foreign boys shouldn't be full members unless they do. The Scouts are a Para-military styled organization, service to country and follow man are their core beliefs. If you want to be a member and move up in the ranks you should hold those beliefs. If not then you shouldn't get to wear the kerchief or raise in rank. But just have fun earning merit badges and making fires and stuff.

    Foreigners pledging allegiance to America is not uncommon. It just means that you believe in the Ideals America stands for. It does not require you to forsake you homeland or religion or anything like that.
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  25. #25
    Clueless but well-meaning Hatshepsut's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Glazer View post
    Foreigners pledging allegiance to America is not uncommon. It just means that you believe in the Ideals America stands for. It does not require you to forsake you homeland or religion or anything.
    Well, I'm glad you're being reasonable because it's kind of scary for me to disagree with Jesus Christ.

    I still think, however, that forcing foreigners to "pledge allegiance to the flag, and to the country for which it stands is peculiar. "Allegiance" to me is more than "I agree with the ideals you stand for." It means "I am loyal to you and will follow your orders." Of course, it is merely symbolic for the Boy Scouts and has no concrete consequence. But I myself take the symbolism pretty seriously - and I suspect that is one of the very few areas where I would agree with the leaders of the Boy Scout troop.

    It was a pretty sick group in Egypt, anyway. When they had their badge ceremonies, they were inspected by the US marines and given points on their uniforms/appearance. That doesn't bother me at all, if it is fair. But it wasn't, because some of the Scouts (my son included) had no access to required parts of the uniform (garters and socks, I think - I can't remember now). You couldn't buy them in Egypt, and the Scouts couldn't get them for you.

    BUT the diplomats did have access to these items because they could have them sent through the diplomatic pouch.

    So, my son and several other boys got crummy scores on their inspection because they were marked down for not having the garters. (or whatever it was). The boys who won in the rankings were children of diplomats.

    What a fine example of American values.

  26. #26
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    For the record, the Boy Scouts of America are simply the recognized American association of the World Organization of the Scout Movement. It's not a uniquely American experience, but an American adaptation of something that is across the globe and is all connected.

    The two things that keep all of these associations connected is the Scout Promise and Scout Law. That oath scouts take was originally written by an Englishman and referred to the king. Now when one takes it you are pledging to follow the law of your own country, whatever country that might be.

    To run a branch of the Boy Scouts in another country, accept citizens of another country, and then to make them take uniquely American pledges is against the very principals of the WOSM. Patriotism to your own country is required, not to any other.

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