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Thread: Is social class a big issue in your society?

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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    Default Is social class a big issue in your society?

    Class exists in some way shape or form in every society presumably but for example class issues seem to be a much bigger issue in Britain than they would be in Ireland. Not that such issues don't exist here but I don't think Irish people define themselves or get as much currency out of notions of class as British people do. Now this is just my impression from watching UK tv so I could be incorrect. Is social class a big issue where you live?

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    Oliphaunt Taumpy's avatar
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    Yes and no. I live in a county where there is a very diverse range of income, and some towns are very wealthy and some very poor (by Mass standards, at least). North Adams, where I live, is definitely on the poor side, and I believe class is a big issue here. A lot of people seem resigned to living how they are, with no hope of having anything better or getting a better education. Meanwhile, the next town over is Williamstown and there's a lot of money there.

    And the residents of the different towns have their preferred banks, places to shop, places to eat. The college kids that go to Williams don't socialize at all with the kids at MCLA (formerly North Adams state). But I think if you asked the Williamstown residents they would say, no, class is no big deal. It's a big deal if you're on the bottom rung of the ladder, though.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    USA: New Jersey.

    I think class here in my neck of suburbia is pretty minor. It is also easy to move between classes in this area at least. I understand there are towns mostly in the Midwest where class is important though I don't know that for a fact. But even there, college kids just leave the crappy town and move someplace where past-class plays no part.

    ETA: I did not see Tom's post. I was on the lower rungs growing up and for us there was no divide but this whole area is bedroom communities with rapid turnover of people in and out of the area. I think that makes a huge difference. We also had a lot of army brats in the schools. Fort Monmouth was nearby and the kids on base went to my high school.

    Tom is your area less transient, does it tend to multi-generational?
    Last edited by What Exit?; 07 Mar 2010 at 01:04 PM.

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    Elephant Feirefiz's avatar
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    What is different from the UK as far as I can tell is that class isn't acknowledged as explicitely. People don't refer to specific classes all that often and they might not even agree on common definitions.

    Yet it is a powerful force even when people are influenced unconsciously. In my experience if people aren't aware of it then it is likely precisely because they have internalized the outlook of their own class to such a degree that they do not question it.

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    Oliphaunt Taumpy's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    Tom is your area less transient, does it tend to multi-generational?
    Yes, absolutely it's multi-generational. Most people born here tend to be lifers.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Taumpy View post
    Yes, absolutely it's multi-generational. Most people born here tend to be lifers.
    I think that is where classism creeps in. Those Midwest towns I was referring to were the old style one industry towns (factory, coal mining, etc.) Just my thoughts though.

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    Jesus F'ing Christ Glazer's avatar
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    In America we have a tradition of a belief in equality. Unless you are at the extremes of the class structure we are pretty much equal in casual social settings.

    In my job I work in the homes of people of every walk of life. From section 8 housing that needs 24 hour police patrols. To $40 million homes of CEO's, movie stars and musicians. And I can't say that I've been treated differently by either.
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    Elephant Feirefiz's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    I think class here in my neck of suburbia is pretty minor. It is also easy to move between classes in this area at least. I understand there are towns mostly in the Midwest where class is important though I don't know that for a fact. But even there, college kids just leave the crappy town and move someplace where past-class plays no part.
    That's interesting. What you describe is much more fluid than class as people here would understand it. Actually changing your class is damn hard. You could make the case that it's not even really possible within a single lifetime, but children of people who are successfully passing can grow up to be members of the new class.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Feirefiz View post
    That's interesting. What you describe is much more fluid than class as people here would understand it. Actually changing your class is damn hard. You could make the case that it's not even really possible within a single lifetime, but children of people who are successfully passing can grow up to be members of the new class.
    I moved from lower middle or maybe working poor to upper middle by the time I was 35. I did nothing special. I do not even have a degree as thanks to timing and a little determination I made the leap into Business Programming when a degree was not needed. But there were plenty of other ways I could have changed class. I'm not rich, but I did go from too poor to go to college to instead worrying about paying for both kids to go to college and hopefully retiring a little early.

    BTW: Both my parents grew up poor, as in dirt poor. So they did well going from that to lower middle class.

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    Elephant Feirefiz's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    I moved from lower middle or maybe working poor to upper middle by the time I was 35. I did nothing special. I do not even have a degree as thanks to timing and a little determination I made the leap into Business Programming when a degree was not needed. But there were plenty of other ways I could have changed class. I'm not rich, but I did go from too poor to go to college to instead worrying about paying for both kids to go to college and hopefully retiring a little early.

    BTW: Both my parents grew up poor, as in dirt poor. So they did well going from that to lower middle class.
    That seems very focused on your economic situation. At least the way class is usually understood here, that is only one aspect and arguably the most volatile one.
    Class is not only about your current situation but your background, your experiences, expectations and aspirations.
    There are a million little things that don't mean much in isolation but combined they say a lot about who you are.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Feirefiz View post
    That seems very focused on your economic situation. At least the way class is usually understood here, that is only one aspect and arguably the most volatile one.
    Class is not only about your current situation but your background, your experiences, expectations and aspirations.
    There are a million little things that don't mean much in isolation but combined they say a lot about who you are.
    Well you could say we Americans have very little class.

    Seriously, we have Blue Bloods but that is about it. Our bigger issues have been race and we still have a ways to go. Blacks in particular have a harder time in this society but well see Obama for how anyone in America can shatter class issues.

    I really think in America is comes down to socio-economic issues and these are secondary to race. Just 50 years ago the racial issues were extreme, extreme to the point that John F Kennedy being an Irish-American and worse yet a Roman Catholic made his victory as shocking as Obama's. At that time the idea of a Black President was still for Science-Fiction only. In another 50 years I hope we are past all these issues for good.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    I must respectfully disagree, Jim. I think class is far, far more of an issue in this country than most Americans are willing to accept. We think that because in theory a person can change their financial situation they can also easily change class. Fact is, neither is happening all that often.

    Class has a lot of influence on America. Because people swallow the idea that what you do with your life is a result of your own resourcefulness, generation after generation of abject poverty gets ignored when the subject comes up, or at the very least it isn't seen as a result of class. At a time when education matters more than ever, success in school remains linked tightly to class.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Well Zuul my own experiences vary greatly and as I pointed out, I was mainly speaking about my area while acknowledging it is different elsewhere.

    Also there has always been an honest way out of poverty and bad schools, join the military. I did and it did help. My Dad did too and he got his GED while in the Air Force and enough experience to do pretty well and escape the abject poverty of his youth.

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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    Well Zuul my own experiences vary greatly and as I pointed out, I was mainly speaking about my area while acknowledging it is different elsewhere.

    Also there has always been an honest way out of poverty and bad schools, join the military. I did and it did help. My Dad did too and he got his GED while in the Air Force and enough experience to do pretty well and escape the abject poverty of his youth.
    The problem with joining the military to get out of a bad situation is that you have to have some idea about what you're going to do afterward. The kids from lower class families around here simply don't have the concepts of what they can do with their lives. They go away, serve their country, and come back to be taxi drivers or work in factories or work in tattoo parlors and those are their highest ambitions. If they take advantage of their educational opportunities, it'll be for something like air conditioner repair or automative.

    Perhaps there are places where the culture is such that young people of any class can grasp the potential out there and are given the encouragement and tools to do so, but for many, many people they are trapped in the place where they started.

    Is it possible to change socio-economic class? Yes. Is it all that likely? Frankly, I have never seen any study that has shown that it is unless you're talking about shifts between different parts of the middle class.

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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    Well Zuul my own experiences vary greatly and as I pointed out, I was mainly speaking about my area while acknowledging it is different elsewhere.

    Also there has always been an honest way out of poverty and bad schools, join the military. I did and it did help. My Dad did too and he got his GED while in the Air Force and enough experience to do pretty well and escape the abject poverty of his youth.
    People say "join the military" as though anybody can do it. First off, not everybody can join the military. Secondly, the military doesn't want just any old body. There are mental, physical, educational, and emotional barriers that will stop a person from being a good fit from the military, and many of those issues are directly related to class.

    I honestly think the people who don't see class in this country are the ones who don't need to see it. They're already comfortably middle or upper class, comfortably white, and barring any horrific circumstances, comfortably set for life. The myth that anybody is America can better their position in life is just that. A myth. It makes us feel all warm and fuzzy inside, and it definitely gives us a soapbox to stand on so we can look down on everybody who doesn't improve their lives. But the best part of the myth is that if somebody fails to achieve "the American dream" it's their own fault. They didn't work hard enough, they didn't want it enough, they were too lazy, too stupid, too this and that. I think that that myth is far more destructive and harmful than it is helpful and uplifting. It not only allows a total whitewashing of history, but it also allows everybody to turn a blind eye to the contemporary double-edged sword of crippling poverty and institutionalized racism and sexism.
    Last edited by pepperlandgirl; 07 Mar 2010 at 07:40 PM.
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    Jesus F'ing Christ Glazer's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by pepperlandgirl View post
    People say "join the military" as though anybody can do it. First off, not everybody can join the military. Secondly, the military doesn't want just any old body. There are mental, physical, educational, and emotional barriers that will stop a person from being a good fit from the military, and many of those issues are directly related to class.

    I honestly think the people who don't see class in this country are the ones who don't need to see it. They're already comfortably middle or upper class, comfortably white, and barring any horrific circumstances, comfortably set for life. The myth that anybody is America can better their position in life is just that. A myth. It makes us feel all warm and fuzzy inside, and it definitely gives us a soapbox to stand on so we can look down on everybody who doesn't improve their lives. But the best part of the myth is that if somebody fails to achieve "the American dream" it's their own fault. They didn't work hard enough, they didn't want it enough, they were too lazy, too stupid, too this and that. I think that that myth is far more destructive and harmful than it is helpful and uplifting. It not only allows a total whitewashing of history, but it also allows everybody to turn a blind eye to the contemporary double-edged sword of crippling poverty and institutionalized racism and sexism.
    You say that "The Myth" that anyone can better themselves is more harmful than helpful. What would you rather teach; know your place, don't try you might fail, be happy with what you've got?

    Well I disagree. I don't think it's a myth at all. It's a fact that anybody can make it to the top. Is it easy? No. Might you fail? Yes. Is the game rigged against you? Of course. But you can't win if you don't play.

    Why is it that so many immigrate here and make something of themselves. Because they believe "The Myth". Wile generations of American poor are taught that they'll never amount to anything.

    In America anybody can make it to the top, but that doesn't mean that everybody can.
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    So I was just the odd ball? The American Dream worked for my family and I but not for the majority? I had no real advantage growing up outside of maybe being smarter than average. My parents were just well enough off to get us out of the Bronx before the City went completely to hell for a while and get us to a suburban NJ town too far for a good commute to NYC. My schools were not good, not even for the area but better and far safer than if we stayed in the City. My parents made a big sacrifice to get us out of a terrible situation and my mom made it her full time job save money so we could make it on my Dad's salary and then as the kids got older, went back to work. We penny pinched, we never went on vacations, there was no money for college, my parents did not even have a clue how to look into getting us help for college.

    I ran into a wall as I could not pay for community college on 30 hours a week of minimum wage and I headed off for the Navy. BTW, if you are poor or lower middle class, that HVAC job can get you out of the bottom rungs and up to middle-class proper where you could and should be able to prepare to help your kids get a better start. I know as I was an "AC repairman" for a while (HVAC mechanic). Auto Mechanics also make a good wage last I checked. The biggest problem in this country is the loss of manufacturing jobs that payed well enough that if a family was wise could get their kids moving up.

    And yes, I am well aware just being white is a huge help, I clearly said that above. My father is old enough to recall when just being Italian was a disadvantage. I never ever had to face that. I am thankful.

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    I don't think it's a matter of "everybody is stuck in their little boxes and can't get out", but that it is a lot HARDER to get out of those little boxes than people give the idea credit. Yes, obviously, some people get out, but dudes, come the fuck on: if it was easy or if the path was well known, people wouldn't be living in poverty. The poor are not all lazy shitheads. Some are stuck in bad situations and can't get out.

    The idea that anybody can pull themselves up by their bootstraps sort of implies the flipside that anyone who DOESN'T do that "deserves" where they are. And no, I'm sorry, they don't.

    It's not about a family that was poor because of the Depression, but then pulled themselves out. It's not about immigrants who came over and created new lives for themselves. It's not all the little anecdotes you can pull out of thin air. It's about the MILLIONS of people who are living at or below the poverty level. MILL. IONS. Good people. Smart people. Kind people. People who would gladly and gratefuly do something to get out of that situation. How is the single mother with four kids, a fucked up back, and a missing tooth going to make more of her life? Chances are she can't even get a job. Guess that woman should've thought about that before she got knocked up, right? Well for those who are CULTURALLY POOR (a difference from simply being financially so), life's options are pretty limited so you go and get yourself knocked up real young because, hey, there's no reason to wait. No hope for anything better.

    And that my friends is class. You look at the single mother of four with her nasty grill and shitty Wal-Mart clothes and whether you want to admit or not, in the back of your head you're thinking you're better than her. In other countries class manifests in different ways, but the way it works in America is that you have a smug little "I deserve where I am" thought process.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    How much is class defined in the USA by the amount of money people earn?
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    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CatInASuit View post
    How much is class defined in the USA by the amount of money people earn?
    To an extent, but it's defined at least as much by ethnicity and education as by sheer money.

    For example, a brain surgeon who was worth a few million dollars would probably think of himself as having more in common with the adjunct professor of English at the local college, who was barely scraping by financially but working on his PhD, than with his next door neighbor who was equally wealthy, but had only a high school education and made his money by running the local furniture store chain.
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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CatInASuit View post
    How much is class defined in the USA by the amount of money people earn?
    A lot of it in my opinion though color has played far too large of a factor in the US. Any white person usually had a chance at least to change class but until recently it was far tougher for blacks. I'm just old enough to have lived through people fleeing neighborhoods as a black person moved in. They cared far more about skin color and feared what it would mean for their neighborhood than who the man was and what he did and what his dreams for his family were.

    But how does class work in the UK?
    How does it affect marriages?
    Friendships?

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    Quote Originally posted by CatInASuit View post
    How much is class defined in the USA by the amount of money people earn?
    Income is a huge factor, though not the only one. A truck driver with a 10th grade education who makes $75,000 a year (easy to do out west with your own rig) does not hang out with the same people, wear the same clothes, eat the same food, or speak the same way as a lawyer with his own small practice making the same amount of money. The trucker can make attempts to show himself as being of a higher class than he is, but anyone of the class he's attempting to emulate would instantly recognize him as out of place.

    It breaks down by education, income, occupation and wealth (a household's net worth, separate from yearly income). Since it's taboo to acknowledge all of the factors to it in America, outside of certain fields and studying the humanities in school most people are unaware of it on an intellectual level and simply respond automatically based on socialization. If asked, they'll say it's all about money and that financial situations can be changed easily.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    Class in the UK, where to start.

    How about here:



    Even as a joke, it was fairly accurate, although it has splintered nowadays, some of the principles still seem to hold true.

    Money is not a deciding factor. It is more a definition of the breeding of the person and it used to take generations for a family to fully switch class, although that's not quite so true anymore.

    Class does partly set out which social circles you move in, but it is certainly not absolute. The only people who really care about what their class is are the social climbers, who always want a better class of people around. The same goes for marriage as well. People do tend to marry in their own class, simply because of the circles they move in.
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    Okay, here is an example I thought of on class in America. We start with four young women, from four very different families.

    At the age of eighteen:

    Woman A starts working at a gas station as a cashier. This is an acceptable job and is celebrated by her family. She's making $12,000 a year.
    Woman B starts university, pursuing a teaching degree. Her family is very pleased that she's chosen a trade skill. While going to school she works on campus. She's making $8,000 a year and already going into debt because of student loans.
    Woman C starts university, pursuing a political science degree. This is considered an acceptable start for her career and it's hoped by her family she might meet a suitable husband this way. She doesn't work and so is without income, but her family is paying for school.
    Woman D starts university, as a pre-med student. Her family is ecstatic at this choice and encourages her academically. She's too busy with school to get a job, so is without income and is relying heavily on student loans.

    At the age of 25:

    Woman A has worked her way up to assistant manager at the store. She has two children and her boyfriend just left her, so her mother is living with her. She is making payments on a house and car. The house isn't very nice and there's some debt, but things look rosy. She's making $25,000 a year.
    Woman B has a BA and has begun working as a teacher. She was able to get hired at a school in Colorado and in agreement to continue working there for a set number of years the school distract paid off her student loans. She's making $35,000 a year.
    Woman C has an MA. Her family was able to arrange a position working as a personal assistant to a state senator. She shmoozes comfortably at work and is planning her career's trajectory. She has a nice apartment and car--the car a gift from her parents--and no real debt. She's making $40,000 a year.
    Woman D is still a medical student. She's eking by, exhausted but driven. Her personal debt is hovering around $100,000. She is still relying on grants, scholarships and loans.

    At the age of 35:

    Woman A is now the assistant manager of a small grocery store. She has three children and has finally married. Her husband works as a bartender. They have moved to a slightly nicer house with an actual yard. Her mother no longer lives with them. There is some debt, paying for the house, cars, hunting trips, etc. Their household income is $60,000.
    Woman B has attained a master's in education and is now the vice-principal. She's married another teacher and they have just had their first child. They've bought a house well out of their price range and so are in a great deal of debt. Their household income is $100,000.
    Woman C is now the campaign manager for a local politician as well as the chair for several organizations. She has married a successful lawyer and her parents have given them the down payment on a huge house adjacent to a golf course. They are beginning to plan for a family. They have zero debt and a number of investments. Their household income is $250,000.
    Woman D has finished her education and is now a plastic surgeon. Her husband is also a doctor, working in pediatrics. They both have a great deal of debt from school, but are slowly paying it off. They are putting off children for another two years until she can handle taking the time off from her career. Their house is modest, but they hope to buy something better soon. Their household income is $400,000.

    If you simply judged based on income, then their "class" is fluctuating wildly throughout this scenario. The fact is that the social and cultural factors deciding class and prestige never really changed.

    Woman B and Woman D are of different financial situations, but are in many ways peers. Woman C has relatively modest personal wealth, but it's clear that it's only going to dramatically increase because of her family's background and connections. Woman A comes from a lower class background and even as her financial situation has improved, the prestige associated with her and her husband's jobs have kept them fairly low.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    It's difficult to give an outline in British terms without knowing what the social status of their family was beforehand.

    Assuming they were all working class to begin with:

    Woman A: Working class throughout
    Woman B: Working class bordering on Middle class
    Woman C: Middle Class by Marriage.
    Woman D: Middle class by Profession and Marriage

    I guess another UK factor would be the Job/Profession the person holds.

    Lawyer/doctor would be noted as a solid Middle Class profession, whereas teacher is not. Then again Headmaster and Vice-Principal would count as Middle Class given the extra respect and responsibilities that come with those roles.

    None of them would count as Upper Class.
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    Ah, yeah. I should have explicitly put the family backgrounds in those examples as well instead of just implying them. Woman C's family is wealthy upper middle class (as shown by their extravagant gifts for her), B and D both come from middle class families (one at the lower range, one solidly in the middle), and A's family is lower class.

    The debts that D has collected are the main thing keeping her stuck in middle class. Had her family been wealthier so that she didn't have to live on loans, she'd be in a far better position. Her children stand a good chance of achieving upper class status by American standards and she'll likely have a comfortable retirement once she pays off those debts. By contrast, C doesn't have to worry about having a particularly high personal income because of the investments and gifts from her family.

    Based off of the chart I linked to earlier, their positions would break down like so at the age of 35:

    Woman A: 41st percentile
    Woman B: 76th percentile
    Woman C: 94th percentile
    Woman D: 80th percentile

    The most prestigious career is that of the surgeon, which also has the highest income, but without wealth backing it up C edges ahead.

    In American terms, you might call each of them middle class, but if we are defining that by income, then it becomes extremely silly to say a household that makes $60,000 is in the same class as a household that makes $400,000.

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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    What I find interesting about class in the British context is that there seems to be some disdain for the idea of "Middle Class". It is seemingly pretentious, ersatz. IIRC a majority of British people still identify as working class even though the archetypal working class jobs form a small part of the workforce. There is also the phenomenon of "Mockney" accents, people putting on more working class accents as these have a positive connotation versus a more middle class one in many situations.

    To a certain extent that is true here, the upper-middle class accent of Dublin, D4 (referring to the Dublin 4 postcode), Dortspeak (referring to towns on the DART transit line) have somewhat negative connotations to those who don't speak like that. It has been amply lampooned by the satirical character Ross O'Carroll-Kelly. I suppose the closest analogues in the US and UK would be preppies and Sloan rangers. Terms like "roysh", "fock", "loike" are interspersed in his writing.

  30. #30
    like Gandalf in a way Nrblex's avatar
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    I've thought about this a bit since the last time I posted in here and I think the problem that Americans run into is that while social class is probably fairly important in most societies, it's not the same across societies. You compare American social class to British and, well, duh, they aren't the same. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, though. They're just very, very different countries. We might speak English here, but that doesn't mean we're culturally English.

  31. #31
    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    But in America can people eschew their class easily?

  32. #32
    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by An Gadaí View post
    But in America can people eschew their class easily?
    Not easily. It's really closely tied in with how you speak, and that's hard to just change at will.
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    I've had better days, but I don't care! hatesfreedom's avatar
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    I always thought american class had more to do with money and social circles. But you can't belong to those social circles normally unless you have money. At least that's how Connecticut and New York seemed sometimes.

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