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Thread: France bans full face veils for Muslims

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    Default France bans full face veils for Muslims

    The French parliament has recommended a partial ban on women wearing full face veils. This ban will be in effect in hospitals, schools and public transport. Effectively, if you wear a full face veil, don't go out into public. The French are saying it is against their principles of secularism and equality and are considering the full veil as contrary to it.

    Rather than aim it at the women, would it not be a better idea be to charge any man accompanying the lady, or to charge the men in the household instead with breaking this law?

    Following on, are the niqab and burka signs of religious oppression of women and should they be banned. Does France have the right idea or is it a fundamental breach of the person's rights to wear what they like.

    Also, how do they think they are going to enforce this ban?
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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    If a woman is being forced against her will to wear a full face veil (I assume more moderate hijab will still be legal in France?), then this law accomplishes nothing. Now, in addition to being forced to wear a veil against her will, that woman will be forced to avoid public transit, schools and hospitals. Fantastic.

    If a woman has chosen of her own free will to wear a full face veil (and there are far more of them than westerners might think), then this law is basically taking away her autonomy and ability to make her own choices, all in the name of "protecting" her and promoting equality.

    In matters of security, I am all for bans against full facial coverings. But banning it in instances where there's little justification for such a thing beyond "secularism" and "equality" accomplishes nothing. You have not reduced the patriarchal oppression you think you're fighting. You have not given these women extra freedom. You've just given their worst oppressors an excuse to keep them indoors. Well done!

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    Someone has to put their foot down somewhere and as I'm convinced a world where half the population are covering their faces from view will be worse than one where nobody is, I applaud the French.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 26 Jan 2010 at 11:01 AM.
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    Oliphaunt
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    Does this mean that all French citizens are now banned from wearing balaclavas? Or is it just those filthy Muslims?

    I get annoyed at the U.S. rather frequently, but I'm a big fan of freedom of religion and freedom of expression.

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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    I thought we were trying to move the world forward, not cling to traditions that have no place in a modern society?
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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    I thought we were trying to move the world forward, not cling to traditions that have no place in a modern society?
    Good point. When the weather is good or you're indoors, there's no reason for wearing clothes except culture, tradition and a sense of modesty that is laughably archaic.

    I propose a law banning the wearing of pants by men indoors or during summer.

    It's time we finally freed the boys from their oppression.

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    Living la vida broke-a Revs's avatar
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    You can have my pants when you pry them from my cold,dead waist.
    Give me whiskey when I'm thirsty,Give me a cold beer when I'm dry, Give me root beer when I'm sickly, Give me a headstone when I die.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TFR You SOB View post
    You can have my pants when you pry them from my cold,dead waist.
    You only say that because you've been brainwashed into thinking you need pants. We only want to help you!

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    Living la vida broke-a Revs's avatar
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    Hey I'm hip, I'm cool, I wear shorts sometimes.
    Give me whiskey when I'm thirsty,Give me a cold beer when I'm dry, Give me root beer when I'm sickly, Give me a headstone when I die.

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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    Good point. When the weather is good or you're indoors, there's no reason for wearing clothes except culture, tradition and a sense of modesty that is laughably archaic.

    I propose a law banning the wearing of pants by men indoors or during summer.

    It's time we finally freed the boys from their oppression.
    Hey, in their own homes people should be able to kit themselves out like a South American wrestler if they so choose, but encouraging people to dress that way outdoors, is another step backwards, IMO.
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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    So why are your cultural preferences superior? It used to be people could run around naked on the British Isles covered in paint. There's no reason you need clothes when the weather is warm. Your pants are no more logical or progressive than a head scarf.

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    I don't see any problem with France passing whatever crazy democracy loving laws they want to pass. I find it only amusing that somehow women can look at this as some sort of male plot against their... well whatever retarded power women think they have (i.e. none). Personally I'm all for them deciding the nature and rules of their culture. If FRENCH WOMEN don't like it I'm sure they'll make their displeasure known.

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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    So why are your cultural preferences superior?
    Because my cultural preferences don't pose a threat to society's security, whereas a specific threat to it, ie. wanted Muslim terrorists, would be able to use this "cultural preference" to lessen their chances of arrest. Can you prove there are no men beneath those veils?
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    Quote Originally posted by hatesfreedom View post
    I don't see any problem with France passing whatever crazy democracy loving laws they want to pass. I find it only amusing that somehow women can look at this as some sort of male plot against their... well whatever retarded power women think they have (i.e. none). Personally I'm all for them deciding the nature and rules of their culture. If FRENCH WOMEN don't like it I'm sure they'll make their displeasure known.
    And if we were discussing how we want to take away the French people's ability to make laws we disagree with, I'm sure this would actually be a valid point. Finding something stupid isn't the same as wanting to take away someone's ability to do it.

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    Have there been any terrorist attacks by men in face-veils in Europe? Or anywhere, for that matter?

    And I don't think this is a male plot against anything. I think it's a xenophobic plot. Get my hysterical, unreasonable justifications right, you damn ferret!

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    Quote Originally posted by Orual View post
    Have there been any terrorist attacks by men in face-veils in Europe? Or anywhere, for that matter?
    None, but that wasn't what I claimed the threat was. Is it so unreasonable to assume that people being wanted in connection with terrorist activities might use this rather convenient mode of dress? Or would Allah forbid such behaviour?
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 26 Jan 2010 at 03:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    Is it so unreasonable to assume that people being wanted in connection with terrorist activities might use this rather convenient mode of dress?
    Considering that they blend in much better when they just conform to Western clothing standards, yes.

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    I've had better days, but I don't care! hatesfreedom's avatar
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    I am here to protect the freedom of countries to be as xenophobic as they wish. Throw the paint on the mink fur coat, rip the masks off the ugly muslim women! Deny jobs to newly immigrated Africans! Go hog wild. This freedom I give unto thee.

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    Quote Originally posted by Orual
    Considering that they blend in much better when they just conform to Western clothing standards, yes.
    No kidding. A shave, a haircut, and a pair of jeans would do a lot better for avoiding notice.

    On edit: Thank you, hates. It just wouldn't be any fun without that.

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    Quote Originally posted by Orual View post
    Considering that they blend in much better when they just conform to Western clothing standards, yes.
    Yes, because the security services are greatly assisted by observing people's clothing and have no interest in the facial features of those they are observing.

    Why give them any sort of advantage, just because of a pathetic belief by certain cultures that covering your women from head to toe is good for society?
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    I'm not xenophobic in the slightest and am open to embrace the good of any culture, but I just do not see where wearing veils in public fits into that set-up.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 26 Jan 2010 at 04:05 PM.
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    Content Generator AllWalker's avatar
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    I'm sorry, but this law is just picking on the Muslims. Let 'em wear their veils, it's a fundamental part of the culture and many women see it as a form of protection. Not all, mind you, but as Zuul pointed out this law wont help them in the slightest.

    If they are a security risk, then so are sunglasses, motorcycle helmets ans sombreros. Also, pregnant woman should be required to walk around with their bellies exposed, as more than one terrorist has carted a bomb around disguised as a happy fetus.

    Wont somebody think of the children happy bomb fetuses?
    Something tells me we haven't seen the last of foreshadowing.

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    If the official reasoning for the law were to allow for security issues, I'd feel a bit differently. I'd still think it's stupid, but at least it would be an honest sort of stupidity.

    But banning face veils because they're undemocratic? That smacks of nothing more than xenophobia to me.

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    Oliphaunt
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    I'm not xenophobic in the slightest and am open to embrace the good of any culture, but I just do not see where wearing veils in public fits into that set-up.
    Then motorcycle helmets should also be banned. That douchey sunglasses-and-hoodie combo poker players wear as well.

    But I see AllWalker has preceded me.

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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    The law is bullshit.

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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    I propose a law banning the wearing of pants by men indoors or during summer.

    It's time we finally freed the boys from their oppression.
    You've got my vote.

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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    In fairness with relation to motorcycle helmets there is a significant difference. The helmet affords the wearer a modicum of safety they do not otherwise have, and also, in certain areas, ie banks, couriers and whatnot are explicitly required to remove their headgear.

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    Quote Originally posted by Orual View post
    Have there been any terrorist attacks by men in face-veils in Europe? Or anywhere, for that matter?

    And I don't think this is a male plot against anything. I think it's a xenophobic plot. Get my hysterical, unreasonable justifications right, you damn ferret!
    Actually, there have been instances of male terrorists leaving and entering the country in full niqab.

    No-one is going to search them because they are allegedly female and its a little hard to check against the passport photo.
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    If a woman has chosen of her own free will to wear a full face veil (and there are far more of them than westerners might think), then this law is basically taking away her autonomy and ability to make her own choices, all in the name of "protecting" her and promoting equality.
    My opinion on this matter has already been well-stated by All-Walker, Otaluki, and others, but the point above by Zuul bears repeating. So often, Westerners who want to ban the veil assume that they know that 100% of veil-wearing women would secretly prefer NOT to veil, and are being forced into it by their evil family members. Or, if these women outwardly declare that they want to veil, we should disregard their statements - they have been brainwashed.

    This is laughably far from the truth, and I speak as someone who has actually talked about the subject with a number of veiled women (which I think is not the case for most of those who claim to know that veiled women are all forced into it).

    In fact, there are a fair number of women who veil in direct opposition to their upbringing - they choose, as adults, to veil, despite having been raised in a more liberal environment.

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    Yes, but it's not like even intelligent people can't convince themselves that something stupid is right. There is no practical benefit to the niqab that I have heard, other than maybe being handy in a sandstorm, and rather than being useful to society, is an actual security hindrance.
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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    First they took our veils then our pajamas!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8484116.stm

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    Oh crap, I went out to dinner at a nice restaurant last night wearing ladies' slippers. I hope I don't get banned for life for my fashion faux pas.

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    Quote Originally posted by An Gadaí View post
    First they took our veils then our pajamas!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8484116.stm
    You don't see many men out shopping in their pyjamas, do you? It seems more like a lazy skank kind of a thing.
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    On occasion I am drafted by a friend to sew pajama bottoms that she sells at craft shows. Not tops. Just bottoms. Around here, pajama bottoms are no more unacceptable than track pants.

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    The bottom line is the French government is right. Women are just too stupid to make their own decisions about how to dress.

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    I think you've hit the nail on the head, Exy.
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    Yes, but it's not like even intelligent people can't convince themselves that something stupid is right. There is no practical benefit to the niqab that I have heard, other than maybe being handy in a sandstorm, and rather than being useful to society, is an actual security hindrance.
    I suppose you are in favour of banning high-heeled shoes too, right? Not useful, damaging to the foot and spine, and can be used to smuggle drugs and explosives.
    Something tells me we haven't seen the last of foreshadowing.

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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    Yes, but it's not like even intelligent people can't convince themselves that something stupid is right. There is no practical benefit to the niqab that I have heard, other than maybe being handy in a sandstorm, and rather than being useful to society, is an actual security hindrance.
    Of course intelligent people can convince themselves that something stupid is right. I doubt there is a single intelligent person on earth who doesn't believe at least one thing that someone else believes is stupid. For example, I think that many of the conspiracy theories that swirl about the September 11 attacks are stupid, hurtful, and arguably harmful to society. But I'm not about to recommend legislation forbidding people from discussing whatever crackpot theories they care to indulge in. Legislating against ideas you don't believe in is rarely a good policy.

    No practical benefit to the niqab? Of COURSE there is practical benefit:

    - You can go out without spending time perfecting your make-up, even if you are the kind of person who hates to be seen without it.

    - It's easy to choose what to wear.

    - You won't get wolf whistles, gropes, or other inappropriate attention from boorish men.

    - It can keep you warm when it's cold out.

    - Maybe you have to take the bus everyday with a former boss, ex-friend, or someone else you feel awkward around. No problem, since they won't be sure it's you.

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    Quote Originally posted by Hatshepsut View post
    - You can go out without spending time perfecting your make-up, even if you are the kind of person who hates to be seen without it.
    This was the big one a friend of mine would talk about. She was extremely fashion conscious and very particular about how she presented herself, but enjoyed the freedom of being able to go out without worrying about that. She also joked about how her older female relatives could whip it on and off so fast you'd think they had bungy cords inside them.

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    Quote Originally posted by Hatshepsut View post
    Of course intelligent people can convince themselves that something stupid is right. I doubt there is a single intelligent person on earth who doesn't believe at least one thing that someone else believes is stupid. For example, I think that many of the conspiracy theories that swirl about the September 11 attacks are stupid, hurtful, and arguably harmful to society. But I'm not about to recommend legislation forbidding people from discussing whatever crackpot theories they care to indulge in. Legislating against ideas you don't believe in is rarely a good policy.
    I agree with most of that, but I'd say that treating ALL "conspiracy theories" with equal incredulity and scorn is even more harmful to society.
    Quote Originally posted by Hatshepsut View post
    No practical benefit to the niqab? Of COURSE there is practical benefit:
    Oh, I apologise for my vagueness. I meant of benefit to humanity, not a group of overly image-conscious women.
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    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    treating ALL "conspiracy theories" with equal incredulity and scorn is even more harmful to society.
    No where did I suggest that all "conspiracy theories" are equally deserving of scorn. I'm sure we could invent a ranking system from the potentially credible to the thoroughly pernicious. But that has nothing to do with my point, which is that attempting to legislate away ideas we disagree with is not a good idea.

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    Oh, I apologise for my vagueness. I meant of benefit to humanity, not a group of overly image-conscious women.
    I see. So, the feelings of the women who are actually wearing the niqab is not of interest to you. They aren't part of the "humanity" whose well-being you are looking out for.


    PS - Please don't take any of this personally. I'm not arguing AT you, I'm arguing WITH you, y'know what I mean?

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    Quote Originally posted by Hatshepsut View post

    I see. So, the feelings of the women who are actually wearing the niqab is not of interest to you. They aren't part of the "humanity" whose well-being you are looking out for.
    I equate those feelings with those of Catholic women who were brainwashed into believing contraception is a sin. The niqab is unnecessary cultural baggage, in the same way anti-contraception edicts are.


    Quote Originally posted by Hatshepsut View post
    PS - Please don't take any of this personally. I'm not arguing AT you, I'm arguing WITH you, y'know what I mean?
    No probs.
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    Quote Originally posted by Hatshepsut View post
    Of course intelligent people can convince themselves that something stupid is right. I doubt there is a single intelligent person on earth who doesn't believe at least one thing that someone else believes is stupid. For example, I think that many of the conspiracy theories that swirl about the September 11 attacks are stupid, hurtful, and arguably harmful to society. But I'm not about to recommend legislation forbidding people from discussing whatever crackpot theories they care to indulge in. Legislating against ideas you don't believe in is rarely a good policy.

    No practical benefit to the niqab? Of COURSE there is practical benefit:

    - You can go out without spending time perfecting your make-up, even if you are the kind of person who hates to be seen without it.

    - It's easy to choose what to wear.

    - You won't get wolf whistles, gropes, or other inappropriate attention from boorish men.

    - It can keep you warm when it's cold out.

    - Maybe you have to take the bus everyday with a former boss, ex-friend, or someone else you feel awkward around. No problem, since they won't be sure it's you.
    Not to mention the fact that for a lot of women, wearing a niqab actually equates to their freedom. In very very traditionalist pseudo*-Muslim cultures a woman will not be allowed out without a niqab. This means no education, no job, no nothing. With a niqab she may be able to go to school/college/university, have a job and a life. I don't like the niqab, I don't support it, but for many women, its a lifeline.



    *I use pseudo since a lot of the niqab wearing tradition is not Muslim in origin, but has been appropriated by certain sects.

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    Content Generator AllWalker's avatar
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    Not to crap on a serious debate or anything, but...

    ... well, this might happen.

    An Arab ambassador called off his wedding after discovering his wife-to-be, who had worn a face-covering veil whenever they met, was bearded and cross-eyed, the Gulf News reports.
    Of course, if you're the sort of guy who marries a woman you have barely met, well, I have no sympathy. But answer me this - without a veil, how close to marriage would she have gotten? Not at all close, that's how close.
    Something tells me we haven't seen the last of foreshadowing.

  45. #45
    Oliphaunt
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    Excellent blog article articulating the reasons why this sort of ban is transparently discriminatory against Muslims.

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    Quote Originally posted by Orual View post
    Excellent blog article articulating the reasons why this sort of ban is transparently discriminatory against Muslims.
    Thanks for linking that, it was an interesting article.

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    Most of the article was good, but this :
    What is wrong with both of these arguments is that they are applied inconsistently. It gets very cold in Chicago – as, indeed, in many parts of Europe. Along the streets we walk, hats pulled down over ears and brows, scarves wound tightly around noses and mouths. No problem of either transparency or security is thought to exist, nor are we forbidden to enter public buildings so insulated. Moreover, many beloved and trusted professionals cover their faces all year round: surgeons, dentists, (American) football players, skiers and skaters. What inspires fear and mistrust in Europe, clearly, is not covering per se, but Muslim covering.
    is so stupid it boggles the mind that she left it in.

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    Quote Originally posted by parzival View post
    Most of the article was good, but this :


    is so stupid it boggles the mind that she left it in.
    Why? One of the frequent objections people make to hijab is that it's somehow dangerous just to have people walking around with their faces covered -- but, as the article points out, it's not somehow "dangerous" for people to cover their faces up when they're doing it for reasons we're comfortable with. I don't see how that's not a good point.

  49. #49
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Depends Exy, I see ski masks and scarves inside to be suspicious actually. Walking around outside no, but inside yes. Weak arguments don't help the pro-veil side.

    While I am at it the reference to doctors and nurses wearing surgical masks also seemed silly.
    Last edited by What Exit?; 14 Jul 2010 at 09:23 AM.

  50. #50
    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Exy View post
    Why? One of the frequent objections people make to hijab is that it's somehow dangerous just to have people walking around with their faces covered -- but, as the article points out, it's not somehow "dangerous" for people to cover their faces up when they're doing it for reasons we're comfortable with. I don't see how that's not a good point.
    How about someone wearing a motorcycle hemlet on while walking into a bank. Doesn't affect me in the slightest, it's not dangerous to anyone else. Its an understandable and important piece fo safety equipment.

    But most banks will not serve anyone wearing a motorcycle helmet. Why is that?
    In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.

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