In a Catholic/Lutheran (LCMS if it matters) relationship, which member of the couple should convert? IOW: who has to change the most in their beliefs to convert?
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In a Catholic/Lutheran (LCMS if it matters) relationship, which member of the couple should convert? IOW: who has to change the most in their beliefs to convert?
Well, Catholic/Lutheran is ground zero of the Reformation, so I would say the belief change is exactly the same level either way.
So, both should become snake handlers.
Well, Catholic/Lutheran is ground zero of the Reformation, so I would say the belief change is exactly the same level either way.
So, both should become snake handlers.
Do do do do do dooty dooty do: :)
It's entirely up to the people themselves to decide. There's no "right" answer. Roman Catholicism has more rules, I'd say, so whoever "went Catholic" would have farther to go.
Thanks EH! As a "Cafeteria Catholic", I'm inclined to agree.
They could both just become non-practicing and make it easy. They in theory already know right from wrong and should have no further need of either of their churches.
I somewhat disagree that RCC has a bunch of "rules," if that's what was implied, but to receive certain of the sacraments (there are only seven, but they are considered important, and holy and so forth) she has more rules than the alternative sects, like Lutheranism.
The only rule of RCC is pretty much listen to your informed conscience, be baptised as a Christian (ideally, Catholic, but they recognize most other Xian baptisms, I believe), and believe in, like Christ and stuff, or at least try if you feel like it. No, I'm not trying to be glib -- if you read the Catechism, there really aren't things most people would call rules there. Attitudes, narratives, but in the end, even the CCC ultimately boils down to "conscience." It's just not a legalistic system, where there's a hierarchy of sins, like bestiality, necrophilia, circles of Hell, and all that, despite that certain thinkers like Aquinas did have some entertaining notions of things like that.
The RCC has the advantage of not being an alternative upstart like the Protestant churches, which, in my experience, are to a sect, very much oriented toward the individual, and in fact arose from cultures with traditions that value individualism.
Yes, there are correct forms for observing the RCC sacraments, and I suppose those are rules, but there aren't any cops around who are going to notice if you don't pronounce the Nicene Creed correctly, or if you insist on pronouncing it (quietly) in Latin (which is, AFAIK, licit, but contrary to the spirit of communion with the church of your fellow parishioners).
Personally, I'd recommend atheism/non-practicing/Chreasting for your friend -- somewhat similar to WE? above -- there's no point in doing a church thing if you don't have strong, inner feelings about it, or value the practice.
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ETA I just notice Missouri-Synod Lutheranism. From what little I know, can those people even be allowed to convert to something else? I mean, there's a reason even an asshole like me knows who they are, and I've never been to Missouri. Not an insult, just I heard they're famous for being super-strict and exclusive/separatist, even.
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For the straight dope, Highlander says it all. Which is unusual for that movie, because it is not exactly The Magnificent Ambersons there.
OK, I think the whole thread got sidetracked on the "why" and not the "how":
so, how to "convert" to Catholicism is pretty easy.
There are four sacraments of initiation.
(i) baptised (again, very liberal recognition of other Xian baptisms)
(ii) penance (confess to a priest or bishop, repent)
(iii) communion (after having confessed any grave sins you're aware of, receive communion by a priest or bishop who has done the stuff with the bread and wine)
and the (iv) confirmation, while a significant initiatory rite, thought to confer additional grace, is not required to be a card-carrying Catholic. It's important, but whatever.
So, in essence, it's a "home-brew" conversion, and you have the advantage that every single Roman-rite Catholic church in the world will practice mass in the same way (well, some people do things wrong, from what I hear, but they're not supposed to) and, if you don't speak the local language, Latin is still the universal language of the church.
SO................what's the conversion for alternative sects? Get Jesus coming up to you and giving you a mystical experience, and doing a baptism? Just sort of saying, "OK,sign me up for the potluck and some grape juice11!!!"? I honestly don't know. I suspect most of the Protestant sects place good effort on studying the bible and doing good work and being nice or whatever, but that's just from casual observation.
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ETA I'm really not trying to be inflammatory. As TE Lawrence suggested, "Perhaps it's my manner." I understand some people take matters of faith and allegiance to communities very seriously, indeed, and I'm just replying to the OP.
Long-winded, sure. Hateful? Sort of. That is what is in my heart. Inflammatory? No, I hope not.
And, no, there should be no "change in beliefs," unless you're a super-theologian. Belief in the story of Christ, and some quibbling about the meaning of communion, and the rest is just some variation on traditional Christianity, as practiced and handed down by tradition from bible times.
Either you think Jesus said Peter should sit in the chair or not.
You religious people really overthink things.
And you're all wrong. Practicing RC here, who has confessed his lack of faith, to the proper "authority" (no, the RCC has very limited authority), and still practices as an atheist Catholic, but one who is properly disposed and who recognizes the possibility of faith. Yeah, I'm probably a heretic, but the RCC recognizes a lot of things, including me personally, and dubious shit like climate change, so pick your battles. Yes, that's a joke. My parishioners, some of them, also think the government of France is an abomination, because it is secular, but who cares. Not my problem.
I'm going to plug again Amin Maalouf's beautiful book ................. it's got an English titl.......*In the Name of Identity*. He speaks a lot about how he came to think about group identity, from, in part, his experience as a Christian of swarthy descent (Lebanon), and, in another part, as a secularist intellectual.
Hey, man, you like brought it up, or whatever.
ETA yeah, the RCC is so exclusive, we fucking hate jews like Edith Stein (St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross) or assholes like Igantius of Loyola. The bar to entry is not actually that high.
BTW: I don't feel my position is Atheist, just Agnostic or more specifically don't believe the Church matters or should matter much.
Yeah, well, if you'd seen the movie *Silence* you'd know I'm supposed to convert you, dink. :)
Both should switch to The Church Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster, which is the only true religion.
Well, I'm Episcopalian, so I'm gonna have to disagree with ya there, Sparky.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episco...United_States)
Hey wait a minute, do you mean Clothahump or me when you say Sparky? I'm guessing I'm the only one that ever had that as a nickname. Clothahump would be either a Wizard or Sensei I would think.Quote:
Originally posted by Elendil's Heir
So are you proposing you just happen to be part of the one true religion?
I figure if you are planning on a family with the couple coming from two different religious background and they want the social aspect that church provides, well gosh darn it, that is why the Unitarians exist, isn't it?
I was responding directly to Clothahump, and with tongue firmly in cheek, of course. Didn't even know that Sparky was a nickname of yours, What Exit!
Yep, every Electrician Mate in a Damage Control Locker on a Navy Ship ends up getting called Sparky. A tradition probably going back to WWI I would guess but at least to WWII. But, yes, overall I was joking around too, no reason for anyone to know that.Quote:
Originally posted by Elendil's Heir
Oh, I had a lot of nicknames, some even usable in mixed company. :)
Ahem....ahem...mmmm...ahem.
Just noting D.N. Iesu Christi Regis this coming Sunday.
Um, just, ahem, saying.
:)
"Sparky"!!!!