What should happen to Tyler Clementi's tormenters?

Story here, about an 18-year-old college freshman, Tyler Clementi, who committed suicide after his roommate and his roommate's friend surreptitiously videotaped him having a sexual encounter with another male, livestreamed it, and tweeted about it:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/30/...ex.html?hpt=T2

I am glad to note that the two announcers in the video seem to be barely able to hold back their utter disdain for the two idiots who tormented Clementi.

The two students are now facing a variety of invasion-of-privacy charges, to which some sort of hate crime charges may be added. According to news reports current as I write this, they potentially face 5 years of jail time.

So, what should happen to these two worthless excuses for human beings? Should they go to jail? Should they be let off the hook? Or somewhere in between?

Because of their youth (which doesn't really excuse their behavior - geez, my 12 year old knows better than to behave like that!) I guess I wouldn't send them to jail (well, maybe for a week or two). But they should be scared shitless right now that this is what is going to happen, and they should remain scared shitless about the consequences of their actions for a nice long time. Alsoo, they should be expelled from Rutgers, assigned a really, really, REALLY huge amount of community service (preferably working with victims of hate crimes), and made to pay a big fine.

Whether all that could be worked out within the confines of the legal system I have no idea, but that's what I'd like to see happen. I think. I'm so disgusted I can hardly put together a coherent thought. Suggestions from others?

I find it hard to suggest anything because an assholeish prank like that most times wouldn't have such terrible consequences. This isn't to excuse their actions but the outrage is coloured by the end result. Notions of privacy are really in a state of flux of late, with regard to facebook, ubiquitous video capture via phone and small camera, youtube and the internet in general. Again not to excuse the guys' actions but these issues aren't going to go away soon, they're integral to this case and to many a case to come methinks.

I don't think my opinion on this is going to be all that logical, because it just horrifies me too much. I'd been holding out hope Clementi might not have actually killed himself and just run off somewhere, but they've identified his body now. I am just so deeply upset by this I don't know where to start.

Whatever happens, I want it in a court of law. I want them to face a trial and to have some punishment, some legal recognition, that this is not okay. Outrage on the Internet isn't enough. Having people hate them and revile their names isn't the right response. It needs to be proper justice.

I know some people feel that the two shouldn't be held accountable for what their actions caused, that they shouldn't be judged more harshly because it drove a boy to suicide. I disagree. This wasn't some hysterical kid getting worked up over a harmless prank. The reason the video was taken, the reason anybody looked at the video, the reason his roommate found it oh-so-funny is because Clementi was gay. He was targeted because of who he was and his isolation and fear and desperation that came as a result was all exacerbated by him being a young gay man.

They pushed a great big "holy fuck my life is over" button on a kid they specifically targeted because of his orientation. I'm too horrified at what was done to Clementi to spare any sympathy for them. Five years in prison? It's a start.

Some where between Zuul and Hatshepsut for me. It is clear they were criminal and help to drive a young man to suicide. I'm not sure what that normally entails for jail sentences but they should get that, the invasion of privacy charges and maybe involuntary pornography or something like that. Basically I think the book should be thrown at them though I suspect the book won't come out to even 5 years. If they do an actually year in jail it would probably be about all that could be expected.

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Originally posted by The Original An Gadaí

I find it hard to suggest anything because an assholeish prank like that most times wouldn't have such terrible consequences.

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I think this kind of thing goes pretty far beyond assholeish prank. I cannot even comprehend how this kind of action would even be entertaining. How do you get to be college age and not figure out the basic fundamentals of treating those around you like human beings?

It's just repulsive.

I'm glad they're being charged with something, but as far as I'm concerned their brains are so broken a prison sentence isn't going to be much help. I hope their parents are proud.

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Originally posted by The Original An Gadaí

the outrage is coloured by the end result.

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That is a good point and I did give it some thought when I first read about what happened. But what those kids did was really unforgivable even without the suicide - it's just a horrifying life lesson for them that the consequences of their actions were so tragic and irrevocable. Had Clementi not killed himself, I doubt I'd feel differently if I heard the story. They MUST have realized that Clementi would be deeply humiliated by what they did, and it should have occurred to them that what they were doing had potential to destroy his well-being. One guy was the roommate - surely he had some clue that Clementi was sensitive/emotionally fragile.

Also, it's an incredibly jerkish and immature prank no matter what. Even without the obvious "hey let's humiliate the GAY dude" angle, what kind of a creep broadcasts someone else's sexual encounters without consent? And even if you know for certain that your target is emotionally strong and will laugh it off, you still could hurt him - maybe his family, college dean, or a potential employer will find out, and won't even realize that the video was filmed without permission. You could do serious damage to someone's personal or professional life with a stunt like that.

They should go to jail for a long time and when they get out, they should be shunned and ignored. What they did is unforgivable.

And when two teenagers with no criminal past also commit suicide rather than do a 15 year sentence of living hell, do we say, "Now that's justice!"?

Somehow, I doubt there would be much as fuss over this if the video had been of him and another female, instead of another male. Instead we have a lot of outrage because he was "outed" at the same time. In this wonderful, enlightened world, it shouldn't matter who he was having sex with, should it?

Some people have made a career from outing people as homosexual, and I don't see them being prosecuted any time soon. Yes, Stonewall, I am looking at you.

The only crime here is Breach of Privacy. And possibly one of stupidity.

I think that it's sad all the way around really. This wasn't a super malicious "Ha ha I'm Outing Teh Gayz!!" thing, this was just two goofy kids doing general dorm shenanigans. The problem is that, one, there's been a rash of gay teen suicides lately which is horrific, and two, this kid must have already had some really big issues before this happened.

I wonder if his horror as to being outed stems from his parents being super anti homosexual. If that's the case, the parents are as much, if not more, to blame than the kids who filmed him. If this kid had instead been filmed making out with a fat girl this wouldn't have probably even made the news and he probably wouldn't have died. But at the end of it all it's sad that this kid chose to take his own life, but I don't think that it's honest or truthful to charge the kids who filmed him with hate crimes and put them in prison because there's just no way that they thought that this was even a remotely possible outcome. They should get in trouble for privacy stuff and probably kicked out of Rutgers for some sort of conduct charge....but really that's it.

If I teased a kid in high school for being a dork, and he later came in and shot up the place and killed a bunch of people am I guilty of murder? Am I an accessory to his actions? Morally perhaps, but I can't agree that I would be legally. Same issue here, these kids were joking around and it had huge, sad, and terrifying concequences but looking at it for what it is you can't ruin these kids lives for making a kids mistake.

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Originally posted by CatInASuit

Somehow, I doubt there would be much as fuss over this if the video had been of him and another female, instead of another male. Instead we have a lot of outrage because he was "outed" at the same time. In this wonderful, enlightened world, it shouldn't matter who he was having sex with, should it? ...

The only crime here is Breach of Privacy. And possibly one of stupidity.

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Originally posted by Cluricaun

I think that it's sad all the way around really. This wasn't a super malicious "Ha ha I'm Outing Teh Gayz!!" thing, this was just two goofy kids doing general dorm shenanigans.

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I'm straight, and if my roommate had done this to me my freshman year of college, there's a good chance I'd have taken a header off a bridge too.

It's September, so the school year has just started. This kid hadn't been away from home that long, and he probably hadn't had a chance to take advantage of college social groups or develop a real support system. And his roommate humiliates him in front of the the entire fucking world for the lulz? It wouldn't take being gay to get suicidal over that

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Originally posted by Cluricaun

I don't think that it's honest or truthful to charge the kids who filmed him with hate crimes and put them in prison because there's just no way that they thought that this was even a remotely possible outcome.

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I'm not sure about the hate-crime charges myself, but I think that if you're smart enough to get into Rutgers, you should be smart enough to figure out that shy kids with few friends might not be the sort to brush off total social embarrassment easily. That's what I find boggling - what the hell did they think was going to happen?

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Originally posted by Orual

I'm not sure about the hate-crime charges myself, but I think that if you're smart enough to get into Rutgers, you should be smart enough to figure out that shy kids with few friends might not be the sort to brush off total social embarrassment easily. That's what I find boggling - what the hell did they think was going to happen?

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Which would make more sense if these were typical popped collar frat douches that had done this, but it was an Indian kid and an Asian girl, they're probably as big of dorks as he was.

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Originally posted by Orual

I'm straight, and if my roommate had done this to me my freshman year of college, there's a good chance I'd have taken a header off a bridge too.

It's September, so the school year has just started. This kid hadn't been away from home that long, and he probably hadn't had a chance to take advantage of college social groups or develop a real support system. And his roommate humiliates him in front of the the entire fucking world for the lulz? It wouldn't take being gay to get suicidal over that

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I agree, what was done to him was quite, quite wrong. It doesn't really matter who he was sleeping with, but having it transmitted across the internet for lulz by someone is enough to permanently ruin his life from that point onwards. Especially as it becomes easier to research people. Good luck getting a prestigious job with a video like that floating around. This alone should be enough to get them jail time and a criminal record.

What I don't agree with is, is the hate crime aspect, which has been leapt on by several groups. I think this would have occured, no matter who he was sleeping with on that night.

Odds on the pair in question still don't fully understand how it went so far.

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Under New Jersey law, a person is guilty of bias intimidation if he or she commits a crime with the purpose of intimidating someone because of race, color, religion, gender, disability, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin or ethnicity; or if the victim or victim's property was selected as a target because of the same factors.

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Originally posted by Dharun Ravi on Twitter

Found out my roommate is gay?

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Originally posted by Dharun Ravi on Twitter

Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay.

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Originally posted by Dharun Ravi on Twitter

Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it's happening again

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The reason he took the video or had any interest in it was because Tyler Clementi was gay and Ravi thought it was apparently hilarious. It was a crime and Clementi was targeted because he was gay. Therefore, under New Jersey law, it is bias intimidation. I imagine that's what people have been referring to when they've talked about hate crime charges.

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Originally posted by CatInASuit

Somehow, I doubt there would be much as fuss over this if the video had been of him and another female, instead of another male. Instead we have a lot of outrage because he was "outed" at the same time. In this wonderful, enlightened world, it shouldn't matter who he was having sex with, should it?

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This argument works when a celebrity does something stupid like calls it slander because someone suggested he was gay. This argument doesn't work when it's about an eighteen year old who probably wasn't really out yet and had just left home for the first time and has been cast in gay porn against his will. The social pressures are completely different than if he was with a girl. The two situations can't be compared.

That young and that new to campus, he probably hadn't had a chance to form a support network yet. Gay kids have grown up in the same society as everybody else. It's not just exactly like being with a girl because our society doesn't tell kids it's exactly like being with a girl. Our society doesn't react like it's just exactly like being with a girl. When society has a strong response because of his orientation, that is a reflection of the exact same pressures and fears that were going on inside of Clementi.

And knowing that, having experienced that, is why so many LGBT rights groups are so deeply horrified by his experience and suicide.

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Originally posted by Zuul

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Originally posted by Dharun Ravi on Twitter

Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay.

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Originally posted by Dharun Ravi on Twitter

Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it's happening again

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Jesus fuck, hasn't this kid ever heard of video games?

We're up to five nationally publicized gay teen suicides in the past month, by the way.

I think it would be great if in addition to jail time, the two people involved in Tyler's death became part of a national campaign to end this kind of behavior. Maybe they could tour high schools and tell students how it feels to drive someone else to suicide.

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Originally posted by Cluricaun

it was an Indian kid and an Asian girl, they're probably as big of dorks as he was.

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Eek. I think that was a well-meaning comment, but quite possibly unfounded (just because they have "ethnic" names doesn't mean they aren't as steeped in American culture as any college freshman - are you assuming Tyler Clementi was raised in a very Italian home?). Unless you know more about their background than I do. As far as I can tell from what's been in the news, they are just two American kids.

Also, assume for the moment that they aren't American citizens, or are first-generation Americans whose parents grew up in India/China and maintained a lot of their home cultures in the family. That doesn't make the kids "probably as big of dorks."

What is a dork, anyway? Someone with limited social skills? Well, if "compassion" is a social skill, I'll concede that Wei and Ravi were the biggest dorks on the planet. But not because they MIGHT be influenced by something besides homogenous American culture.

By the way, 50 Cent can eat shit and die as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally posted by The Original An Gadaí

By the way, 50 Cent can eat shit and die as far as I'm concerned.

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Sorry, what's that about? As a middle-aged resident of Indonesia, I barely know who 50 Cent is.

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Originally posted by The Original An Gadaí

By the way, 50 Cent can eat shit and die as far as I'm concerned.

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Sorry, what's that about? As a middle-aged resident of Indonesia, I barely know who 50 Cent is.

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Originally posted by Hatshepsut

Sorry, what's that about? As a middle-aged resident of Indonesia, I barely know who 50 Cent is.

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50 Cent made comments on his Twitter page that "Any man who doesn't eat pussy should kill himself," though I may have gotten the wording slightly off. Granted, we don't know if it was a direct response to Clementi's death, but it was still a shitty, shitty thing to say.

Wow. It's things like that that make me happy I don't live in America. (Not that there isn't plenty of Teh Stupid here in Indonesia - believe me, there is - but at least it's usually not coming from my own culture.)

Oh, he's said more than that, Marsilia. The suicide one appears to be about Clementi, but this one had been just a few weeks ago:

http://glaadblog.org/wp-content/uplo...Tweet-Copy.jpg

He's on a roll.

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Originally posted by Zuul

http://glaadblog.org/wp-content/uplo...Tweet-Copy.jpg

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Oh, but Fiddy! You reallyare a douche bag!

Zuul! Your board hates me! :(

A couple of weeks ago a 16 year old girl was raped at a rave. Kids took pictures on their phones while it was going on and posted the pictures on Facebook. It seems it was probably a "gang rape". Rumours abound.

Two boys have been arrested and charged with possession of child pornography - that's what the photos are seen as by the law here in BC. No charges have been set on the rape itself, not yet, although at least one guy's face was clearly identifiable in the pictures. The RCMP has asked repeatedly that people do not forward these photos, and if they do, they will be charged under the child porn laws.

It's a disgusting situation. I sincerely and deeply hope that everyone who ever does stuff like this, or like what was done to the boy in the opening post, has their goddamn hands cut off at the shoulders.

NEWSFLASH! - Assholes misuse technology and indulge in inappropriate behaviour. Is this a sign of the coming Apocalypse, or something more sinister?

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

NEWSFLASH! - Assholes misuse technology and indulge in inappropriate behaviour. Is this a sign of the coming Apocalypse, or something more sinister?

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Not a sign of the apocalypse but the nature of modern ICT means these assholish things can and do have wider repercussions and such assholish behaviour is easier than hitherto. Prior to widespread proliferation of webcams, digital cameras it would just have been far more impractical to pull off something like what Tyler Clementi's tormentors had done. Now you have inconspicuous and ubiquitous cameras, and a means to distribute the information from it across the world in seconds. There's also no "hard copy" that can be destroyed. As with the Canadian rape case, a further repercussion is that compromising AV footage or stills that makes its way onto the internet might never be fully eradicated.

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Originally posted by Hatshepsut

Because of their youth (which doesn't really excuse their behavior - geez, my 12 year old knows better than to behave like that!) I guess I wouldn't send them to jail (well, maybe for a week or two).

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Having been terrorized and fearing for my life during high school, I'm not all that inclined to have pity on these people because of their age. I see college freshman every day. They should know better. If they're going to break the law, they can face the proper legal repercussions like any other adult.

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Originally posted by The Original An Gadaí

I find it hard to suggest anything because an assholeish prank like that most times wouldn't have such terrible consequences.

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Unless it can be proven there were threats or harassment that led up to the suicide, I don't think they should face any consequences for Tyler's death. He didn't seem that upset to me about the video in his message board postings the day before. However, the video and broadcast is illegal. They should face the maximum penalty, because breaches of privacy need to be treated more seriously in this country.

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Originally posted by Cluricaun

Which would make more sense if these were typical popped collar frat douches that had done this, but it was an Indian kid and an Asian girl, they're probably as big of dorks as he was.

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Asians and dorks are just as much capable of crimes as anybody else. Dorks and Asians can rape. They can kill. They can harass. They can be bigots. And, oh hell yeah look at that, they can invade your privacy.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

NEWSFLASH! - Assholes misuse technology and indulge in inappropriate behaviour. Is this a sign of the coming Apocalypse, or something more sinister?

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It's a sign of a growing problem in society that needs to be addressed. Our privacy is diminishing every day and it's becoming easier and easier for people to invade it. As The Original An Gadaí points out, once images are out there you can't bring them back in. They are potentially out there forever.

We need to take breaches of privacy seriously or else soon we won't have any privacy at all. I want them to get the maximum sentence for the video and if there's evidence that there was harassment or threats in addition to the video, I want them to get the maximum sentence for that, too. This is not child's play. These are not harmless pranks. These are violations we need to respond to before every last private moment we have is immortalized against our will.

Living outside of the US, it is a little difficult for me to gauge how this story is being treated, but now that several days have elapsed since the story broke, I am dismayed to see how little attention seems to be being paid to the perpetrators. They are both over 18, right? Where are the hordes of journalists following them with cameras saying "Molly! Is it true you aren't a virgin, and would you mind if your sexual encounters were on youtube?" "Darun - did you sleep in your dorm room any nights after Tyler killed himself? What was that like?" I'd like to see nice splashy articles detailing their high school lives, complete with any embarrassing stories that can be dug up. I want interviews with ex boyfriends/girlfriends. After all, they clearly think it is 100 percent okay to splash the most personal details of another person's life across the media for anyone to see. Tit for tat. And I really, really WOULD like to know more about them, as I cannot imagine what kind of monster would behave the way they did, and I'd be fascinated to see how they are holding up right now.

Further, I want to know what additional charges may be brought and WHEN they will be brought - with specifics. I want to know if Molly Wei has an attorney yet, and if not why she thinks she doesn't need one. If she has one, I want the official statement from her lawyer.

But as far as I can tell, Ravi and Wei are practically being ignored in the coverage. We are getting lugubrious memorials to what a fine young man Tyler was, the predictable soul-searching comments from Rutgers officials, and not much else.

Just for perspective here is a local article on these two fiends.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...i_molly_w.html

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Originally posted by The Star-Ledger

It is what happened later, however, that has wreaked havoc on the lives of Ravi and Wei.

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Oh yeah, cry me a river. :rolleyes:

Interestingly, according to that article they didn't just see Clementi was with another guy and giggled about it, but actually watched him have sex and got all set up for an encore. That makes it pretty hard to swallow the "innocent prank" angle the article is pushing.

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"I would understand how kids can get bored. ...I understand that, I definitely get that. For me — I understand because I see it — when they get to college, because they’re so suppressed, they just do whatever."

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Yes, making your roommate an internet porn star without his consent is just a natural progression from boredom. :roll:

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Now Clementi is dead, and Ravi and Wei have not been seen in days.

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One of these things is not like the others....

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Originally posted by Zuul

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Originally posted by The Star-Ledger

It is what happened later, however, that has wreaked havoc on the lives of Ravi and Wei.

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Oh yeah, cry me a river. :rolleyes:

Interestingly, according to that article they didn't just see Clementi was with another guy and giggled about it, but actually watched him have sex and got all set up for an encore. That makes it pretty hard to swallow the "innocent prank" angle the article is pushing.

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Yeah, there is so much wrong with that. First, I have yet to see any evidence that havoc is being wreaked on the lives of Wei and Ravi.

Second, I'm willing to concede that the kids really thought it was an "innocent prank" - but if that's the case, it doesn't exonerate them at all. On the contrary, it suggests that they are callously unable to empathize with another human being to the point of being sociopaths.

As Peeta pointed out, it's no excuse if they are dorks. However, what little information is coming out suggests that they were anything but -- on the contrary, they were the popular kids in high school, well-liked and well-rounded.

And here's another thought...did any of the kids tweeted to tweet back, "dude, that's sick" or in any way show disapproval or tell Dharun to stop?

I know that's asking a lot, but it would be nice to think there are a few lone voices of sanity out there. Probably no one did, though, because Dharun most likely did not have had the kind of friends that would respond that way.

well, if he didn't use the at feature there's no telling if they actually saw it. Or didn't see it until after the fact. I follow about 80 people on twitter and if I load it up after a few hours of nonusage, I'll often have upwards of 300 tweets. That's a lot to sift through on a regular basis.

There seems to be a lot of effort in the media to make Dharun Ravi and Molly Wei more sympathetic. Fuck that. There is nothing sympathetic about them because of what they did. I really hope they get jail time.

Yes, because that will really teach them the errors of their wicked ways, like it has for so many other criminals before them.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Yes, because that will really teach them the errors of their wicked ways, like it has for so many other criminals before them.

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Jail time isn't really about teaching people the error of their ways, as any Law 101 class will teach you. Jail time is about saying "This is the consequence of that action," and hoping at least a few people watching will take that as a deterrent. Jail time is about telling the victims and their families that the people who hurt them are being punished, and hoping they don't resort to vigilanteism.

So, yeah. I hope those little fucks get jail time, too. I have no sympathy for that kind of "prank," and maybe seeing these two kids punished will send the message to a few more that their behavior was NOT okay.

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Originally posted by Marsilia

So, yeah. I hope those little fucks get jail time, too. I have no sympathy for that kind of "prank," and maybe seeing these two kids punished will send the message to a few more that their behavior was NOT okay.

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Unfortunately, I don't think our culture really does say that their behavior wasn't OK. Our culture says that bullying is a part of life, and it only happens to losers, and if it bothers you you're weak and soft and inferior. Completely lacking in empathy and common decency is waved off, as long as it 'was only a prank'.

I think you're right, Orual. It's deemed acceptable to attack, torment and "prank" people. The gay kid, the learning disabled, the foreigner, the flat-chested girl, etc. When people try to draw attention to the problem the response is inevitably that bullying is common and therefore not a big deal.

This school is a particularly bad example of this mentality.

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If there has been soul-searching among the bullies in Mentor - a pleasant beachfront community that was voted one of the "100 Best Places to Live" by CNN and Money magazine this year - Sladjana's family saw too little of it at her wake in October 2008.

Suzana Vidovic found her sister's body hanging over the front lawn. The family watched, she said, as the girls who had tormented Sladjana for months walked up to the casket - and laughed.

"They were laughing at the way she looked," Suzana says, crying. "Even though she died."

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Originally posted by Zuul

This school is a particularly bad example of this mentality.

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Damn, that is a depressing article.

A brief update on the trial that followed Tyler Clementi's suicide.

Of the two, Dharun Ravi is facing up to 10 years in jail for his part having been found guilty of Invasion of Privacy, tampering with evidence, and interfering with a witness.

The other, Molly Wei, had charges dropped in return for a supervision order, counselling and testifying against Ravi.

More details here with an editorial here

He'd rejected a plea deal that would have included assistance in staying in the country. Going to trial and then having all of his character witnesses be middle aged friends of his father who'd never spoken to him about LGBT people really screwed him over. I'm just astounded at how many missteps there were there.

I hope he rots. There was was some (New Yorker?) article that was clearly written to elicit some sympathy for Ravi, but I came away from it thinking he sounded like the exact sort of sociopathic twit I thought he would be.

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Originally posted by Orual

he sounded like the exact sort of sociopathic twit I thought he would be.

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Agreed. A twit who honestly thought the probation deal wasn't good enough for him, who had the smug idiocy to think he should walk away from this without so much as a slap on the wrist.

He probably thought that if he paid for good enough lawyers they would be able to get him off the charges. I wonder if he still thinks he did anything wrong.